What's it like rooting for people who aren't from your home country and don't even speak your language? Have any of you ever had the feeling (except for Sweden and Denmark in CS) of having a team win something (with players from your own country)??? NA, BR, KR, Russia, and other regions experience this wonderful feeling almost every year, but what's it like having to root for foreigners?
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EMEA COME
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dapada [#3]unity in diversity
Good, so you admit that you root for a region, not for your country or for people who speak your language, right?
i think people in the west, especially Europe dont mind getting behind and supporting people from diverse cultures as long as they are playing for their club/team or even country. There is alot of cross ethnic diversity in these regions as alot of talented individuals from around the world migrate there. Its the same as rooting for Neymar or Messi when he plays for Barca/PSG. They have no reason to look at what language they speak or how they look.
I don't care really?
I mean Loud wouldn't have won anything without the help of "foreigners".
I mean of course it would be cool if your country produced a team that could a huge tournament by themselves, but it's unrealistic for some small and less esports driven countries.
EMEA has been so intertwined amongst each other that there isn't that many reasons to create solo-national teams anymore.
EMEA is more focused on creating the best roster possible to win internationally, hence why teams try select the best players across the whole of emea instead of focusing on a single country.
kskm [#7]i think people in the west, especially Europe dont mind getting behind and supporting people from diverse cultures as long as they are playing for their club/team or even country. There is alot of cross ethnic diversity in these regions as alot of talented individuals from around the world migrate there. Its the same as rooting for Neymar or Messi when he plays for Barca/PSG. They have no reason to look at what language they speak or how they look.
But these teams need to have a majority of players from the country of the team. This comparison only reinforces my point. While there are European teams with 5 players, each one from a different country. PSG cannot have less than 6-7 French players.
unserious [#8]I don't care really?
I mean Loud wouldn't have won anything without the help of "foreigners".I mean of course it would be cool if your country produced a team that could a huge tournament by themselves, but it's unrealistic for some small and less esports driven countries.
EMEA has been so intertwined amongst each other that there isn't that many reasons to create solo-national teams anymore.
EMEA is more focused on creating the best roster possible to win internationally, hence why teams try select the best players across the whole of emea instead of focusing on a single country.
Loud won with only one foreign player, Saadhak. European teams are often formed with 5 players each from a different country and speaking different languages. I don't see a German who only speaks German, for example, opening the livestream of an esports event where EMEA is playing, to cheer for 5 foreigners...
this is offensive, anyone can support whoever they want regardless of race, if they feel unified on one aim/goal
who cares whether u live in same place or not, such unity is actually much more precious. i support navi because i like angel, do i need to be Ukranian to support him?duh
ur pov is discriminatory
angels1query [#11]this is offensive, anyone can support whoever they want regardless of race, if they feel unified on one aim/goal
who cares whether u live in same place or not, such unity is actually much more precious. i support navi because i like angel, do i need to be Ukranian to support him?duh
ur pov is discriminatory
Not, it's not offensive. It's a question that you can answer rationally.
Astroman77 [#13]Not, it's not offensive. It's a question that you can answer rationally.
i answered rationally and said its offensive. lol
Its kinda implying that the only reason ppl support each other is because they root from same culture, and most people really support people they like
emirerays [#12]Its not about race, i root for navi because i like them. You dont have to be the same race as anyone to be able to root for them.
This is just a shit opinon my man.
You don't need to be of the same race, and I'm not even talking about that. I'm referring to rooting for people of other nationalities, different cultures, and who speak a different language than yours. And no, it's not offensive.
angels1query [#14]i answered rationally and said its offensive. lol
Its kinda implying that the only reason ppl support each other is because they root from same culture, and most people really support people they like
I didn't say you didn't answer, I just wanted to reinforce that it's not offensive. It's an observable pattern.
Astroman77 [#15]You don't need to be of the same race, and I'm not even talking about that. I'm referring to rooting for people of other nationalities, different cultures, and who speak a different language than yours. And no, it's not offensive.
Clearly you dont know what race means.
Astroman77 [#9]But these teams need to have a majority of players from the country of the team. This comparison only reinforces my point. While there are European teams with 5 players, each one from a different country. PSG cannot have less than 6-7 French players.
the quota on international talent in football is not because people will not be able to get behind brazillian players in france but because they feel the need to grow local talent. Its inferiority complex, jingoism and borderline racism which disables people to get behind and support people from diverse backgrounds.
Astroman77 [#16]I didn't say you didn't answer, I just wanted to reinforce that it's not offensive. It's an observable pattern.
I guess it is a pattern you see in some people, but doesn't hold for most lol. It's rather a too broad of an assumption
And the way you ask it is even worse, honestly u can just say that it's nice that EMEA supports each other regardless of race, why you ask like "how does it feel like to be that way" really off way to put it
emirerays [#17]Clearly you dont know what race means.
And I don't even need to know, race was never brought into question.
Astroman77 [#10]Loud won with only one foreign player, Saadhak. European teams are often formed with 5 players each from a different country and speaking different languages. I don't see a German who only speaks German, for example, opening the livestream of an esports event where EMEA is playing, to cheer for 5 foreigners...
Yeah Loud won champs with the help of Saadhak and frod.
European teams normally have a common language between the players, this is normally English.
I don't feel like Koi fans would get xenophobic over Koi not having a full Spanish roster?
Winning is most important to fans and organisations.
Whilst they do try to balance this why national pride, winning is still the priority.
angels1query [#19]I guess it is a pattern you see in some people, but doesn't hold for most lol. It's rather a too broad of an assumption
And the way you ask it is even worse, honestly u can just say that it's nice that EMEA supports each other regardless of race, why you ask like "how does it feel like to be that way" really off way to put it
No man, the pattern I'm talking about is having 5 players from different countries on the same team... It's something observable in several European teams. And from the responses, I've come to the conclusion that most of you root for a region and for foreigners from the same continent, rather than for your own country.
Astroman77 [#9]But these teams need to have a majority of players from the country of the team. This comparison only reinforces my point. While there are European teams with 5 players, each one from a different country. PSG cannot have less than 6-7 French players.
that is only government regulation on raising local talent not about "having players to cheer for" lmfao
xD1LL4N [#23]Brazillian's with weird nationalism. Name a better combo.
i root for the players and orgs i like. i grew up in england but travelled all across europe making friends in every country.
Name a reason why i shouldn't root for someone bc they speak a different language and from a different country ?
By the example you gave, would it be enough to travel to Asia and make friends there to be able to root for an Asian team? They are just as foreign as the Europeans you root for - different language, different country, different culture.
brobeans [#21]sorry but im not racist
"EMEA COME"
You have NA teams to root for, just like Brazilians, Koreans, Russians, etc...
Astroman77 [#27]"EMEA COME"
You have NA teams to root for, just like Brazilians, Koreans, Russians, etc...
NA is not a country, not a nation. What are you even baffling about.
hekzy [#28]translation: why are you guys not nationalist?
The French, Germans, Italians, and many other European countries are like that. If you root for a region and for foreigners within the same continent, admit it and say out loud: "Okay, my country is weak in any esports, so I have to root for a team made up of players from other countries and pretend that I'm not a nationalist."
hekzy [#30]NA is not a country, not a nation. What are you even baffling about.
In theory. In practice, Canadians don't have their own team and most of the teams are composed of 5 Americans.
UvuvwevwevweOnyetenyevwe [#31]Do you want us to hate foreigners?
I want you to root for your country to do well enough in esports.
Astroman77 [#33]In theory. In practice, Canadians don't have their own team and most of the teams are composed of 5 Americans.
Didn't see you asking Canadians if they feel that way. Argentinians?
Also, you're talking about cultural affinity without recognizing that NA and SA are a melting pot of different cultures. In Brazil you have africans/romani/hispanics/native americans. In NA they have Asians/africans/literally people from all over the world with no cultural affinity to one another.
Thirdly, to answer your ultra racist region-baiting question: We're not racist, we don't judge/like people based on the color of their skin/culture/nationality but by the merits of their character.
Astroman77 [#26]By the example you gave, would it be enough to travel to Asia and make friends there to be able to root for an Asian team? They are just as foreign as the Europeans you root for - different language, different country, different culture.
if i enjoy their playstyle or personality, yes?
Name a reason why i shouldn't root for someone bc they speak a different language and from a different country ?
Astroman77 [#20]And I don't even need to know, race was never brought into question.
What the fuck nationalities mean to you dumbass ?
Astroman77 [#34]I want you to root for your country to do well enough in esports.
So you want us to hate foreigners ?
xenophobic.
unserious [#22]Yeah Loud won champs with the help of Saadhak and frod.
European teams normally have a common language between the players, this is normally English.I don't feel like Koi fans would get xenophobic over Koi not having a full Spanish roster?
Winning is most important to fans and organisations.
Whilst they do try to balance this why national pride, winning is still the priority.
It's not about xenophobia, it's about different emotions: rooting for 5 people from your own country is different from rooting for 5 foreigners from different countries, but who are from the same continent. For example, the feeling of rooting for Sentinels is not the same as before, according to some Americans. When 2k and Tarik joined to complete a team that was previously composed of 5 Brazilians, many began to not care if the team lost - it wasn't like before. I see many Europeans pretending not to care about it by saying that we are nationalists, but this argument seems to be used as a facade for the lack of a team to be "nationalistic" about.
Astroman77 [#26]By the example you gave, would it be enough to travel to Asia and make friends there to be able to root for an Asian team? They are just as foreign as the Europeans you root for - different language, different country, different culture.
This is so weird. Im American and don't speak great Spanish yet I'm still a massive fan of Leviatan. I love their players and think they are fun to watch, that's all it takes for me to like a team. I don't really care what country they are from. It also helps that KiNgg and Shyy are the two hottest Valorant players
emirerays [#38]What the fuck nationalities mean to you dumbass ?
It's not about race, you animal. That's why there are different Arab countries and not a single country called "Union of Arab Countries". I can have Chinese ancestry and be born and live in Brazil and I will have Brazilian nationality, not Chinese, you fool.
Esports is for fun and we are all humans, nations are definitely important and i believe everyone loves their country and fellow countryman. But loving, supporting other nations and humans are definitely normal.
Coming to your question, it is definitely a lot different than supporting your nation's team. When 5 Turks are on the same server my blood pumps a lot faster. It is sad to see your team lose but you can always change sides and support other remaining teams in the tournament.
For example i was supporting NAVI in lockin but they got dominated by FNATIC and i supported FNC against LOUD.
btw i just kind of understand know that LOUD with Sacy and pANcada was something else, didn't watch LOUD a lot before but watching Sacy and pANcada in SEN made me think they were really stacked roster. i hope we can see them together again
It's not that deep Lil bro. Support who u like. I don't personally root for GE even though i am Indian. I support TL coz I love nats and redgar. Even in pacific,drx is my favorite bcoz I love their game play and personality. It would be cool to see GE win but I am not gonna feel a connection to them just coz they have Indian players and are an Indian org. Sure many ppl are the opposite of what I am but there are also many ppl like me not just in India but all over the world who root for teams solely based on how much hey like a player or org or in general by feeling a connection to that particular team
hekzy [#36]Didn't see you asking Canadians if they feel that way. Argentinians?
Also, you're talking about cultural affinity without recognizing that NA and SA are a melting pot of different cultures. In Brazil you have africans/romani/hispanics/native americans. In NA they have Asians/africans/literally people from all over the world with no cultural affinity to one another.
Thirdly, to answer your ultra racist region-baiting question: We're not racist, we don't judge/like people based on the color of their skin/culture/nationality but by the merits of their character.
Argentines don't root for us, much less for Loud... It's not even necessary to ask. In Brazil, there are different cultures, but everyone is Brazilian and speaks the same language, just like in the United States. You don't have to be racist or judge someone just because you don't want to root for teams with players from other countries who don't even speak your language. You're not racist for not rooting for DRX or T1, for example...
Astroman77 [#32]The French, Germans, Italians, and many other European countries are like that. If you root for a region and for foreigners within the same continent, admit it and say out loud: "Okay, my country is weak in any esports, so I have to root for a team made up of players from other countries and pretend that I'm not a nationalist."
So when you watch esports... you think about countries? Is this ww2? Check your wires mate
Sk00d [#54]2/8 since people actually took that question seriously
would be 0/8 otherwise tho
also ask someone like the uruguayans next bro
he's not baiting lol
hekzy [#53]So when you watch esports... you think about countries? Is this ww2? Check your wires mate
For Europe, it's impossible to be about countries. It's not like you have choices. Lol.
Styling911 [#39]I agree with you
unless they are like top tier and celebrities ( football for example )
I will never root from my heart and soul for someone who isnt from my country or at least speak my language
yeah i think you have a problem, im sorry
Astroman77 [#6]Good, so you admit that you root for a region, not for your country or for people who speak your language, right?
lul whats the problem with that
kskm [#18]the quota on international talent in football is not because people will not be able to get behind brazillian players in france but because they feel the need to grow local talent. Its inferiority complex, jingoism and borderline racism which disables people to get behind and support people from diverse backgrounds.
The theory is beautiful. In practice: there's no European football team with less than 6-7 players from the home country; most European esports teams are made up of players of different nationalities (here, local talent doesn't matter); It seems that your excessive insecurity and fear about something we don't know is preventing you from seeing the obvious: your argument is rubbish.
Astroman77 [#57]For Europe, it's impossible to be about countries. It's not like you have choices. Lol.
generally when you think of sports it's impossible to think about nationalism but i guess you have nothing personal to be proud of in your miserable life so you can only find refuge in what other people that just live next to you have achieved
Astroman77 [#45]It's not about race, you animal. That's why there are different Arab countries and not a single country called "Union of Arab Countries". I can have Chinese ancestry and be born and live in Brazil and I will have Brazilian nationality, not Chinese, you fool.
Brazil education
FoechiGG [#65]I remember rooting for a team from my country in a football world cup once. I think they destroyed that country with the green and yellow flag🗿
💀💀
hekzy [#62]generally when you think of sports it's impossible to think about nationalism but i guess you have nothing personal to be proud of in your miserable life so you can only find refuge in what other people that just live next to you have achieved
My life is not so miserable that I have to root for Argentines, Chileans, Peruvians or any other country in my continent. That's the point, there's no need to change the subject to try to cover up how angry and frustrated you feel about admitting that you root for a region (EMEA) because you have no other choice. There have never been and never will be 5 Greeks good enough in any sport or e-sport for you to be even remotely nationalistic. And there will never be any famous Greek streamer who speaks Greek. You have to settle for consuming content in English. And no, it's not a choice.
number1_cNed_fan [#66]this is one of the dumbest things ive seen on this site
I assume you think that because you don't have a country to root for and are forced to put nationalism aside to pretend to like diversity in order to support a region with players from various different countries where most of them don't speak Turkish? Yeah, if Brazil were so weak that it didn't have a competitive team, I would also root for LATAM...
Astroman77 [#70]I assume you think that because you don't have a country to root for and are forced to put nationalism aside to pretend to like diversity in order to support a region with players from various different countries where most of them don't speak Turkish? Yeah, if Brazil were so weak that it didn't have a competitive team, I would also root for LATAM...
Brazil doesn't even speak their own language. they adopted an european language....
valorant_player [#64]Someone's visa got denied lmao
Oh, I remember the players from Sentinels, it makes sense for the American to feel upset.
xD1LL4N [#71]Brazil doesn't even speak their own language. they adopted an european language....
Not even the US speak their own language and yet they do whatever they want in Europe, what does that have to do with what I said?
FoechiGG [#65]I remember rooting for a team from my country in a football world cup once. I think they destroyed that country with the green and yellow flag🗿
Brazil, the best and greatest country in football. Second place goes to Germany and Italy
Afgan_Prince [#76]Of course i like to cheer the most for players from my country and to teams from my country
People who wont admit this are cosmopolitic without identity or they are scared of being called racist
W
Afgan_Prince [#76]Of course i like to cheer the most for players from my country and to teams from my country
People who wont admit this are cosmopolitic without identity or they are scared of being called racist
being cosmopolitic != without identity
Number_1_Sheydos_Fan [#60]lul whats the problem with that
I don't know either, can you explain to me why the majority here got angry with this FACT?
Ekhem, Virtus Pro and Polish line up in CS ring a bell? 🤣
We won similar or even more thropies as Sweds and Danes.
Ascend V and Polish line up that won 1st Champio s ring a bell? 🤣
I don't get part about not speaking "your" native language.
Like... you probably never gonna speak with them 🤣
But thing i never understood is how someone becomes an esport player and dont speak even basic english.
Taking zywoo for example, when he emerged as one of the best he spoke non english... how is that even possible in these days?
I am Polish but speak English somehow well so I don't need these players speak Polish really.
And players might not be from X country but org is.
For example Fnatic - UK org with few different country players.
I used to support VP while they had Polish line up, dropped CS esport due to them disbanding.
Followed Ascend when playing V.
But when there is time there is no Polish line up I just watch turnament and when I take liking of some team be It due to performance or them being an underdog I support them and felling is pretty much the same as it is when I support Polish team.
Going to Berlin for EMEA finals, really impressed with Fnatic performance but it would be too easy to support them.
Probably gonna fallow Vitality for this buetyfull underdog story and Polish Molsi playing for them.
FoechiGG [#65]I remember rooting for a team from my country in a football world cup once. I think they destroyed that country with the green and yellow flag🗿
😭😭💀
Dokka [#82]I root for players and teams that I like not based on the country they’re from
All my fav teams are in pacific and EMEA and Im a US citizen
Inherently rooting for teams from your country is totally fine
But it’s also fine to root for teams outside your country and it’s hella weird to kinda demonize rooting for teams outside of your Local Bubble
Kapril [#80]Ekhem, Virtus Pro and Polish line up in CS ring a bell? 🤣
We won similar or even more thropies as Sweds and Danes.Ascend V and Polish line up that won 1st Champio s ring a bell? 🤣
I don't get part about not speaking "your" native language.
Like... you probably never gonna speak with them 🤣
But thing i never understood is how someone becomes an esport player and dont speak even basic english.
Taking zywoo for example, when he emerged as one of the best he spoke non english... how is that even possible in these days?
I am Polish but speak English somehow well so I don't need these players speak Polish really.And players might not be from X country but org is.
For example Fnatic - UK org with few different country players.I used to support VP while they had Polish line up, dropped CS esport due to them disbanding.
Followed Ascend when playing V.But when there is time there is no Polish line up I just watch turnament and when I take liking of some team be It due to performance or them being an underdog I support them and felling is pretty much the same as it is when I support Polish team.
Going to Berlin for EMEA finals, really impressed with Fnatic performance but it would be too easy to support them.
Probably gonna fallow Vitality for this buetyfull underdog story and Polish Molsi playing for them.
I forgot about the Poles, didn't read it all but you also have/had someone to root for and didn't need to force yourself to like "diversity" just to have a pretext to support a region of various foreigners from different countries.
W!
xD1LL4N [#71]Brazil doesn't even speak their own language. they adopted an european language....
They didnt “adopt” a european language. Brazil was colonized by portugal so Brazilians have always spoken Portuguese.
Portuguese is Brazil’s language.
Dokka [#83]Inherently rooting for teams from your country is totally fine
But it’s also fine to root for teams outside your country and it’s hella weird to kinda demonize rooting for teams outside of your Local Bubble
W
I don't know what's the difficulty that the majority has in admitting that they root for a region and don't have a choice to support a team from their own country simply because that team doesn't exist.
unserious [#22]Yeah Loud won champs with the help of Saadhak and frod.
European teams normally have a common language between the players, this is normally English.I don't feel like Koi fans would get xenophobic over Koi not having a full Spanish roster?
Winning is most important to fans and organisations.
Whilst they do try to balance this why national pride, winning is still the priority.
Frod wasn't Louds coach when they won Champions. Saadhack mas the only foreigner in the lineup.
Astroman77 [#86]W
I don't know what's the difficulty that the majority has in admitting that they root for a region and don't have a choice to support a team from their own country simply because that team doesn't exist.
I’m not entirely sure what you’re trying to say here but
For some people they wanna root for teams from their home country
And other people support whoever, like me
Both are fine, but it’s bad to demonize either option
Asuna_Yuuki [#85]They didnt “adopt” a european language. Brazil was colonized by portugal so Brazilians have always spoken Portuguese.
Portuguese is Brazil’s language.
In Portugal, they speak European Portuguese which is quite different and even difficult for a Brazilian to understand. A country the size of a grain of rice managed to colonize Brazil and another the size of a rat managed to colonize the US. Now, they are infinitely less influential than their former colonies, respectively.
Astroman77 [#61]The theory is beautiful. In practice: there's no European football team with less than 6-7 players from the home country; most European esports teams are made up of players of different nationalities (here, local talent doesn't matter); It seems that your excessive insecurity and fear about something we don't know is preventing you from seeing the obvious: your argument is rubbish.
Why is it so hard for you to grasp the idea that people can and will support players outside of their country/race/religion/color? Why do you even support LOUD or their players when they dont even know u exist - why not support people only in your MonkeySphere (people u know and talk to on a daily basis -)? Is the jingoism sold by the corrupt politicians in your nation mixed with cocaine that you cannot snap out of it?
Dokka [#88]I’m not entirely sure what you’re trying to say here but
For some people they wanna root for teams from their home country
And other people support whoever, like meBoth are fine, but it’s bad to demonize either option
You will excuse me, but if a person has a team from their own country to support and chooses to support a region instead, that person is an exception.
Astroman77 [#75]Brazil, the best and greatest country in football. Second place goes to Germany and Italy
BRA71L is the GOAT. But if it wasnt for the European clubs who "supported" foreign talented Brazilian players with facilities and money. Brazil wouldnt win a single trophy.
bonkashi [#90]brazilian begins to learn you are allowed to like people who aren't from your country
As I've said before, if Brazil didn't have any competitive team, I would certainly root for LATAM. But that's a CIRCUMSTANTIAL situation. Voluntarily, no Brazilian prefers to root for other teams, having a team composed of players from their own country.
Astroman77 [#92]You will excuse me, but if a person has a team from their own country to support and chooses to support a region instead, that person is an exception.
You’d be surprised how many people there , I tend to support EMEA and pacific teams way more then NA even though there are plenty of teams to choose from
(Notable exception being #MxMwin
Astroman77 [#92]You will excuse me, but if a person has a team from their own country to support and chooses to support a region instead, that person is an exception.
Loud stans are wild. Imagine trying to belittle the stronger region bc they dont field single country rosters(even though Saadhak is from Agentina). What moral high horse are you trying to ride ?
Astroman77 [#92]You will excuse me, but if a person has a team from their own country to support and chooses to support a region instead, that person is an exception.
I don’t gaf where people are from, I look at people for who they are and how they act not where they’re from
Same applies for my choice in valorant teams
kskm [#93]BRA71L is the GOAT. But if it wasnt for the European clubs who "supported" foreign talented Brazilian players with facilities and money. Brazil wouldnt win a single trophy.
Brazil won the first 3 World Cups when the strongest league was the Brazilian league, and no one even dreamed of going to Europe because the best were here. You don't even know what you're talking about. Focus on basketball and NFL and stop embarrassing yourself with this kind of dumb statement.
Astroman77 [#94]As I've said before, if Brazil didn't have any competitive team, I would certainly root for LATAM. But that's a CIRCUMSTANTIAL situation. Voluntarily, no Brazilian prefers to root for other teams, having a team composed of players from their own country.
its not a thing of preference, i don't root for all UK teams because there are none at the top level, as teams in the region know it's best to scout the whole of EMEA rather than just one country. if there was a full UK team i would root for them, what you're not understanding is that it's often not a matter of "i am actively choosing to root for a team i have no national connection to" but making compromises based on what there is, eg I support Liquid bc Soulcas is british, and Fnc bc its a british org and both boaster and mini are.
But then again that's not to mention at all that i also support teams that i like, outside of country connections. I have no connection to PRX, but i still watch and root for them because i like the players, personalities and gameplay style, something I've found to be weirdly lacking from Brazilian fans, it's very rare to see them be fans of teams or players that aren't from Brazil.
Overall I think its weird to phrase this take in the form of an insult, that we're missing out on something, seeing as most people on this website aside from Brazilians root for what they enjoy watching over what they are close to nationally
Astroman77 [#98]Brazil won the first 3 World Cups when the strongest league was the Brazilian league, and no one even dreamed of going to Europe because the best were here. You don't even know what you're talking about. Focus on basketball and NFL and stop embarrassing yourself with this kind of dumb statement.
I aint talking about the 1950s obviously.. 80% of your '94 and 2002 winning teams played for European clubs. Even now most of your players play for European clubs where they get the money and training which they wouldnt in Brazil. Maybe this wouldnt happen if the Europeans were xenophobic enough to not encourage Brazilian talent. But hey - dont question that because it works for you and BR!!
kskm [#91]Why is it so hard for you to grasp the idea that people can and will support players outside of their country/race/religion/color? Why do you even support LOUD or their players when they dont even know u exist - why not support people only in your MonkeySphere (people u know and talk to on a daily basis -)? Is the jingoism sold by the corrupt politicians in your nation mixed with cocaine that you cannot snap out of it?
First: People can do that, but it seems like they don't like to admit that they do it because they don't have any other choice. Especially Europeans. It's not like a Spaniard wakes up and thinks, "what a lovely day, today I'm going to root for my country's team in Valorant/LOL/CS (whatever)." They simply don't have that alternative and, due to this circumstance, they are led to root for a region (EMEA) with foreign players from several different countries. This is not an opinion, it's just a hard truth to swallow. But gradually, they will be able to overcome this. Second: I root for Loud not because they are Brazilian, since Furia and Mibr are also Brazilian teams and I don't root for them. I root for IDENTIFICATION. Did something happen between September 1st and 20th that made you lose your sanity to the point of not understanding my point? Look at the thread title!
Astroman77 [#43]It's not about xenophobia, it's about different emotions: rooting for 5 people from your own country is different from rooting for 5 foreigners from different countries, but who are from the same continent. For example, the feeling of rooting for Sentinels is not the same as before, according to some Americans. When 2k and Tarik joined to complete a team that was previously composed of 5 Brazilians, many began to not care if the team lost - it wasn't like before. I see many Europeans pretending not to care about it by saying that we are nationalists, but this argument seems to be used as a facade for the lack of a team to be "nationalistic" about.
Nah, unfortunately you're just wrong. Different strokes for different folks. There are plenty of people that do care and definitely would feel stronger in rooting for a team composed of their country men. But this isn't everyone. A lot of people simply don't have an ounce of nationalism in them. That might be hard to understand for a Brazilian as that definitely doesn't seem to be the case for most people in Brazil, but there are plenty of people that feel that way. You can pretend that's a facade if you want. For some people, I'm sure it is. But it isn't for others. Acting as if you can magically get in everyone's head and know exactly how they feel/think is pretty arrogant and quite frankly makes you come off as pretty delusional.
Pink_Maldito [#87]Frod wasn't Louds coach when they won Champions. Saadhack mas the only foreigner in the lineup.
https://twitter.com/bzkagaming/status/1572046612826030081
https://twitter.com/loud_less/status/1572297141502066688?s=20&t=yvzPNGEbvFVE7X_aFQjliQ
Despite not being an official part of Loud's backroom staff, he was credited by the Loud players and staff for helping them with their pistol round strats.
This probably is one of the reasons why Frod is the head coach now.
kskm [#100]I aint talking about the 1950s obviously.. 80% of your '94 and 2002 winning teams played for European clubs. Even now most of your players play for European clubs where they get the money and training which they wouldnt in Brazil. Maybe this wouldnt happen if the Europeans were xenophobic enough to not encourage Brazilian talent. But hey - dont question that because it works for you and BR!!
They have been playing there for years and yet Brazil has not won the World Cup for over 20 years. Maybe that's the problem, isn't it? This argument is unsustainable. Brazil's most successful era was when Brazilian players only played in the Brazilian league.
Astroman77 [#79]I don't know either, can you explain to me why the majority here got angry with this FACT?
what the fuck is your take????????
Astroman77 [#69]My life is not so miserable that I have to root for Argentines, Chileans, Peruvians or any other country in my continent. That's the point, there's no need to change the subject to try to cover up how angry and frustrated you feel about admitting that you root for a region (EMEA) because you have no other choice. There have never been and never will be 5 Greeks good enough in any sport or e-sport for you to be even remotely nationalistic. And there will never be any famous Greek streamer who speaks Greek. You have to settle for consuming content in English. And no, it's not a choice.
ok but where are you going with this thread,like whats ur point
bonkashi [#99]its not a thing of preference, i don't root for all UK teams because there are none at the top level, as teams in the region know it's best to scout the whole of EMEA rather than just one country. if there was a full UK team i would root for them, what you're not understanding is that it's often not a matter of "i am actively choosing to root for a team i have no national connection to" but making compromises based on what there is, eg I support Liquid bc Soulcas is british, and Fnc bc its a british org and both boaster and mini are.
But then again that's not to mention at all that i also support teams that i like, outside of country connections. I have no connection to PRX, but i still watch and root for them because i like the players, personalities and gameplay style, something I've found to be weirdly lacking from Brazilian fans, it's very rare to see them be fans of teams or players that aren't from Brazil.
Overall I think its weird to phrase this take in the form of an insult, that we're missing out on something, seeing as most people on this website aside from Brazilians root for what they enjoy watching over what they are close to nationally
In summary, if there was a strong and competitive UK team that could win championships, you would root for them more than any other team in EMEA, right?
Astroman77 [#104]They have been playing there for years and yet Brazil has not won the World Cup for over 20 years. Maybe that's the problem, isn't it? This argument is unsustainable. Brazil's most successful era was when Brazilian players only played in the Brazilian league.
"80% of your '94 and 2002 winning teams played for European clubs". There have been 5 world cups in last 20 years - other nations dont just come there to participate. you won 3/7 copa americas in last 20 years though - the other 4 winners also had several european club players btw. If there is an argument which is unsustainable on this thread - its yours
kskm [#108]"80% of your '94 and 2002 winning teams played for European clubs". There have been 5 world cups in last 20 years - other nations dont just come there to participate. you won 3/7 copa americas in last 20 years though - the other 4 winners also had several european club players btw. If there is an argument which is unsustainable on this thread - its yours
I'm talking about Brazil and World Cups. I repeat: the most successful era of the Brazilian national team was the Pele era, when players only played in the Brazilian league. During that time, they won 3 World Cups. 3 is greater than 2. Brazil has won 5 World Cups in total. Since they started exporting our players, we haven't been able to surpass what was achieved during the golden years of Brazilian football.
Stop trying to argue as if you understood the subject. I would never have the audacity to argue sports knowledge about basketball or NFL with you. Let's stick to our own areas of expertise...
Astroman77 [#101]First: People can do that, but it seems like they don't like to admit that they do it because they don't have any other choice. Especially Europeans. It's not like a Spaniard wakes up and thinks, "what a lovely day, today I'm going to root for my country's team in Valorant/LOL/CS (whatever)." They simply don't have that alternative and, due to this circumstance, they are led to root for a region (EMEA) with foreign players from several different countries. This is not an opinion, it's just a hard truth to swallow. But gradually, they will be able to overcome this. Second: I root for Loud not because they are Brazilian, since Furia and Mibr are also Brazilian teams and I don't root for them. I root for IDENTIFICATION. Did something happen between September 1st and 20th that made you lose your sanity to the point of not understanding my point? Look at the thread title!
"I don't support Brazilian teams because they are Brazilian, I do it for identification"
"Hey people from Europe, what is it like to support teams that are not from your country"
man you have just enough brain cells not to shit on yourself and little else
Astroman77 [#109]I'm talking about Brazil and World Cups. I repeat: the most successful era of the Brazilian national team was the Pele era, when players only played in the Brazilian league. During that time, they won 3 World Cups. 3 is greater than 2. Brazil has won 5 World Cups in total. Since they started exporting our players, we haven't been able to surpass what was achieved during the golden years of Brazilian football.
Stop trying to argue as if you understood the subject. I would never have the audacity to argue sports knowledge about basketball or NFL with you. Let's stick to our own areas of expertise...
Your argument makes no sense. There is no evidence to say Brazilian players were better when they played for BR clubs - if that was the case why doesnt your current squad just field BR club players - or are they not as good as the ones who go to EU clubs? How do Brazilians win so many club trophies in EU? Why cant u accept the fact that EU is not xenophobic enough to accept BR players and train them and give them money? The fact that you think because Im American, I cannot know anything about football (yh i dont call it soccer and dont watch NFL) tells me everything i need to know about you. There are people who enjoy/support stuff outside of their national/cultural/racial boundaries - you are somehow incapable to understand this.
Astroman77 [#107]In summary, if there was a strong and competitive UK team that could win championships, you would root for them more than any other team in EMEA, right?
probably, for the sake that they are from my country, but i would also still root for other teams that didn't have uk players based on other factors like personality, player skill and team style.
bonkashi [#112]probably, for the sake that they are from my country, but i would also still root for other teams that didn't have uk players based on other factors like personality, player skill and team style.
So you think like me...
Astroman77 [#69]My life is not so miserable that I have to root for Argentines, Chileans, Peruvians or any other country in my continent. That's the point, there's no need to change the subject to try to cover up how angry and frustrated you feel about admitting that you root for a region (EMEA) because you have no other choice. There have never been and never will be 5 Greeks good enough in any sport or e-sport for you to be even remotely nationalistic. And there will never be any famous Greek streamer who speaks Greek. You have to settle for consuming content in English. And no, it's not a choice.
" there will never be any famous Greek streamer who speaks Greek"
smh + ratio
Astroman77 [#69]My life is not so miserable that I have to root for Argentines, Chileans, Peruvians or any other country in my continent. That's the point, there's no need to change the subject to try to cover up how angry and frustrated you feel about admitting that you root for a region (EMEA) because you have no other choice. There have never been and never will be 5 Greeks good enough in any sport or e-sport for you to be even remotely nationalistic. And there will never be any famous Greek streamer who speaks Greek. You have to settle for consuming content in English. And no, it's not a choice.
"my life is not miserable"
"having Brazilian valorant content creators is something to be proud of"
If you think that's something to be proud of, you don't have many things to be proud of in your life.
kskm [#111]Your argument makes no sense. There is no evidence to say Brazilian players were better when they played for BR clubs - if that was the case why doesnt your current squad just field BR club players - or are they not as good as the ones who go to EU clubs? How do Brazilians win so many club trophies in EU? Why cant u accept the fact that EU is not xenophobic enough to accept BR players and train them and give them money? The fact that you think because Im American, I cannot know anything about football (yh i dont call it soccer and dont watch NFL) tells me everything i need to know about you. There are people who enjoy/support stuff outside of their national/cultural/racial boundaries - you are somehow incapable to understand this.
"There is no evidence to say Brazilian players were better when they played for BR clubs"
Is three World Cup wins not evidence enough? Football is purely based on results. Is 20 years without a World Cup win not enough? During this drought, the Brazilian national team was composed of 80% of players who played outside of Brazil. Zero World Cups.
"if that was the case why doesnt your current squad just field BR club players - or are they not as good as the ones who go to EU clubs?"
Currently, the situation is different, and it's not just about money anymore, but because the best players are in Europe. Even if the MLS paid more than European teams, the average American player wouldn't refuse an offer from Chelsea to play in the Premier League, for example. Competitiveness > money. That's why few players go to China, despite them paying on average much more than European teams.
"How do Brazilians win so many club trophies in EU?"
I didn't understand that point, the Brazilian goes to any team aiming for titles... He can be bad and still win a Champions League, the quality of a single player doesn't define the result.
"Why cant u accept the fact that EU is not xenophobic enough to accept BR players and train them and give them money?"
It's not like Europe is doing us a favor by hiring someone. They buy our players because in Brazil we have a good crop for any position on the field, and so they seek to have better results in their respective leagues. Brazilian players accept because most of the time the salary is satisfactory and they will have chances to play against the bests. It's a two-way street, everyone wins.
"There are people who enjoy/support stuff outside of their national/cultural/racial boundaries"
You can support it as much as you want, but many can't admit that they do it because they have no other choice.
Fichy [#110]"I don't support Brazilian teams because they are Brazilian, I do it for identification"
"Hey people from Europe, what is it like to support teams that are not from your country"
man you have just enough brain cells not to shit on yourself and little else
I didn't know I needed to explain that when I say 'identification', it also includes nationality. How am I going to identify with an Asian team to the point of rooting for them, for example? You need a lesson in interpretation. The context says it all.
I think yes most Europeans support European orgs instead of DRX, Loud etc.
But if their nation is too weak, they just adapt to a Europe-nation- mentality. What I mean by that, they see Europe as their country (continent) and region and root against other regions. Because they are Europeans.
And if teams like heretics have someone like mixwell, it’s enough reason to support this team as a Spaniard even though the other 4 on this roster aren’t Spaniards.
Martinao [#119]I think yes most Europeans support European orgs instead of DRX, Loud etc.
But if their nation is too weak, they just adapt to a Europe-nation- mentality. What I mean by that, they see Europe as their country (continent) and region and root against other regions. Because they are Europeans.And if teams like heretics have someone like mixwell, it’s enough reason to support this team as a Spaniard even though the other 4 on this roster aren’t Spaniards.
Pretty much, there are even spaniards that support teams with no presence of any spanish player in the team
Same happens with other nations in europe
Ic4rusYam2 [#120]It's not like we can say much, the best team in Brazil has an Argentine from IGL and an American as coach
the sanest brazilian
Astroman77 [#117]"There is no evidence to say Brazilian players were better when they played for BR clubs"
Is three World Cup wins not evidence enough? Football is purely based on results. Is 20 years without a World Cup win not enough? During this drought, the Brazilian national team was composed of 80% of players who played outside of Brazil. Zero World Cups.
"if that was the case why doesnt your current squad just field BR club players - or are they not as good as the ones who go to EU clubs?"
Currently, the situation is different, and it's not just about money anymore, but because the best players are in Europe. Even if the MLS paid more than European teams, the average American player wouldn't refuse an offer from Chelsea to play in the Premier League, for example. Competitiveness > money. That's why few players go to China, despite them paying on average much more than European teams.
"How do Brazilians win so many club trophies in EU?"
I didn't understand that point, the Brazilian goes to any team aiming for titles... He can be bad and still win a Champions League, the quality of a single player doesn't define the result.
"Why cant u accept the fact that EU is not xenophobic enough to accept BR players and train them and give them money?"
It's not like Europe is doing us a favor by hiring someone. They buy our players because in Brazil we have a good crop for any position on the field, and so they seek to have better results in their respective leagues. Brazilian players accept because most of the time the salary is satisfactory and they will have chances to play against the bests. It's a two-way street, everyone wins.
"There are people who enjoy/support stuff outside of their national/cultural/racial boundaries"
You can support it as much as you want, but many can't admit that they do it because they have no other choice.
man is incapable of answering the quesion
As an American I shit my pants in rage and anger everytime I see one of these so called "American" teams play. Sentinels? 2 BRAZILIANS 2 CANADIANS 1 BRITISH "person" and zekken is asian!!!!! (I only root for people who look like me). EG? Jawg is CAMBODIAN!!!!!!! NRG? Arrdis is LATVIAN, FNS is CANADIAN, only crashies is likable (Im only allowed to like people who look like me) On paper I should be allowed to root for 100T but they secretly have 3 asian players (I cant support people who arent me) Cloud 9 is the only team Im allowed to support (Unlike Loud they are all American which makes them better because im a nationalist)
ambo69 [#125]As an American I shit my pants in rage and anger everytime I see one of these so called "American" teams play. Sentinels? 2 BRAZILIANS 2 CANADIANS 1 BRITISH "person" and zekken is asian!!!!! (I only root for people who look like me). EG? Jawg is CAMBODIAN!!!!!!! NRG? Arrdis is LATVIAN, FNS is CANADIAN, only crashies is likable (Im only allowed to like people who look like me) On paper I should be allowed to root for 100T but they secretly have 3 asian players (I cant support people who arent me) Cloud 9 is the only team Im allowed to support (Unlike Loud they are all American which makes them better because im a nationalist)
but seriously the main reason for this that I can think of is that Europeans are typically very anti nationalist based on their history with it (Nationalism is bad)
Astroman77 [#117]"There is no evidence to say Brazilian players were better when they played for BR clubs"
Is three World Cup wins not evidence enough? Football is purely based on results. Is 20 years without a World Cup win not enough? During this drought, the Brazilian national team was composed of 80% of players who played outside of Brazil. Zero World Cups.
"if that was the case why doesnt your current squad just field BR club players - or are they not as good as the ones who go to EU clubs?"
Currently, the situation is different, and it's not just about money anymore, but because the best players are in Europe. Even if the MLS paid more than European teams, the average American player wouldn't refuse an offer from Chelsea to play in the Premier League, for example. Competitiveness > money. That's why few players go to China, despite them paying on average much more than European teams.
"How do Brazilians win so many club trophies in EU?"
I didn't understand that point, the Brazilian goes to any team aiming for titles... He can be bad and still win a Champions League, the quality of a single player doesn't define the result.
"Why cant u accept the fact that EU is not xenophobic enough to accept BR players and train them and give them money?"
It's not like Europe is doing us a favor by hiring someone. They buy our players because in Brazil we have a good crop for any position on the field, and so they seek to have better results in their respective leagues. Brazilian players accept because most of the time the salary is satisfactory and they will have chances to play against the bests. It's a two-way street, everyone wins.
"There are people who enjoy/support stuff outside of their national/cultural/racial boundaries"
You can support it as much as you want, but many can't admit that they do it because they have no other choice.
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20 years of drought is an exaggeration - there have been only 5 world cups in these 20 years and the fact that in these 20 years, BR players have moved to EU clubs cannot be held as a causation of their supposed drought. There could be several other reasons why - including the fact that other teams/nations have developed in the game. England hasnt won the World Cup in so many years - not because their players were playing in EPL or any other league. Simple fact that BR players are playing with the best (as u said) + winning titles for clubs shows there hasnt been any drop in their talent by moving to these clubs so holding that as a reason for BR not winning a WC makes 0 sense. Correlation =/= Causation.
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Chinese teams are not competing for fresh talent. There is example of your very own Neymar going to PSG over Barcelona or even other EPL teams. Do you think French league is more competitive than La Liga or even EPL? So your argument of competitiveness > money is not true for all cases. It depends from player to player.
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"EU supports other countries because no choice" "BR players play in EU because of better opportunities+money" - Do u not see the irony and bias in your statements? Using your logic can one not say that BR footballers have no choice to play in BR leagues because they are broke and cannot retain top tier talent? Its the same as saying "oh u learn English because Portuguese sucks no opportunities" "Oh u prob just play video games from American companies like Riot and Valve cause BR companies suck" "Oh u prob watch Hollywood movies cause BR movies suck" "Oh u prob drive a jap/eu/usa car cause BR autmobile sucks" ---- this is xenophobia and self praising of ur own nation not understanding that the world is diverse and interconnected and everyone benefits from every country.
Astroman77 [#118]I didn't know I needed to explain that when I say 'identification', it also includes nationality. How am I going to identify with an Asian team to the point of rooting for them, for example? You need a lesson in interpretation. The context says it all.
Bruh, you're contradicting yourself too much. Give it a break its not that deep man.
hekzy [#116]"my life is not miserable"
"having Brazilian valorant content creators is something to be proud of"If you think that's something to be proud of, you don't have many things to be proud of in your life.
I stated facts, I didn't say I'm proud of them...
kskm [#129]
20 years of drought is an exaggeration - there have been only 5 world cups in these 20 years and the fact that in these 20 years, BR players have moved to EU clubs cannot be held as a causation of their supposed drought. There could be several other reasons why - including the fact that other teams/nations have developed in the game. England hasnt won the World Cup in so many years - not because their players were playing in EPL or any other league. Simple fact that BR players are playing with the best (as u said) + winning titles for clubs shows there hasnt been any drop in their talent by moving to these clubs so holding that as a reason for BR not winning a WC makes 0 sense. Correlation =/= Causation.
Chinese teams are not competing for fresh talent. There is example of your very own Neymar going to PSG over Barcelona or even other EPL teams. Do you think French league is more competitive than La Liga or even EPL? So your argument of competitiveness > money is not true for all cases. It depends from player to player.
"EU supports other countries because no choice" "BR players play in EU because of better opportunities+money" - Do u not see the irony and bias in your statements? Using your logic can one not say that BR footballers have no choice to play in BR leagues because they are broke and cannot retain top tier talent? Its the same as saying "oh u learn English because Portuguese sucks no opportunities" "Oh u prob just play video games from American companies like Riot and Valve cause BR companies suck" "Oh u prob watch Hollywood movies cause BR movies suck" "Oh u prob drive a jap/eu/usa car cause BR autmobile sucks" ---- this is xenophobia and self praising of ur own nation not understanding that the world is diverse and interconnected and everyone benefits from every country.
These are just facts: Brazil's most successful period was when Brazilian players only played in Brazilian leagues. It was the strongest league and we grew based on our own parameters. There is no disputing that. At that time, Brazilian football was unparalleled and unique. Dribbles that no one knew (pedalada, elastico, carretilha), plays that no one knew and tactical formations that no one knew. There was no one with a similar playing style to ours precisely because our football was not exported and no one had any idea how to combat it - It was like Korea in LoL before Koreans started to be exported to strengthen other leagues. Over time, the first European clubs began to import the "joga bonito". The level of world football began to be equalized and that's when we suffered for 24 years without winning a World Cup (the longest period, in fact) - between 1970 and 1994. We managed to become champions again in 1994 and 2002 due to a generation in which Brazil simply had stars in every position on the field. A dream team 5.0. Losing with the players we had at that time would be unimaginable... There is a very clear causality relationship through the facts narrated above.
I won't dwell on this, it's just reality: most players choose competitiveness over money. That's why when CR7 chose to play in a league in the Middle East, he was heavily criticized. Regarding the French league: not even the French care about this league. Neymar and Messi joined PSG to win the Champions League... 20 million more or less doesn't make a difference for these guys, they're already wealthy enough.
Here I think you got confused: when I talk about supporting EU teams out of lack of choice, I meant that a German, for example, doesn't have the option to support a German esports team simply because that team doesn't exist. They have no choice - they either support teams from EMEA (their continent/region) or they don't support anyone. A Brazilian player can play wherever they want but that won't necessarily attract Brazilian fans to their respective team. From there, you mixed in an opinion I gave about e-sports (in the previous post) with the Europe-Brazil relationship in football, so I don't need to answer something confusing...
neID [#128]lil bro thinks an esports club is a national football team
It doesn't have to be a football team, but it's much less interesting to root for 5 foreigners from 5 different countries who speak 5 different languages. But I understand, that's the only option for most people who root for teams in EMEA.
Astroman77 [#6]Good, so you admit that you root for a region, not for your country or for people who speak your language, right?
man who cares
Astroman77 [#133]These are just facts: Brazil's most successful period was when Brazilian players only played in Brazilian leagues. It was the strongest league and we grew based on our own parameters. There is no disputing that. At that time, Brazilian football was unparalleled and unique. Dribbles that no one knew (pedalada, elastico, carretilha), plays that no one knew and tactical formations that no one knew. There was no one with a similar playing style to ours precisely because our football was not exported and no one had any idea how to combat it - It was like Korea in LoL before Koreans started to be exported to strengthen other leagues. Over time, the first European clubs began to import the "joga bonito". The level of world football began to be equalized and that's when we suffered for 24 years without winning a World Cup (the longest period, in fact) - between 1970 and 1994. We managed to become champions again in 1994 and 2002 due to a generation in which Brazil simply had stars in every position on the field. A dream team 5.0. Losing with the players we had at that time would be unimaginable... There is a very clear causality relationship through the facts narrated above.
I won't dwell on this, it's just reality: most players choose competitiveness over money. That's why when CR7 chose to play in a league in the Middle East, he was heavily criticized. Regarding the French league: not even the French care about this league. Neymar and Messi joined PSG to win the Champions League... 20 million more or less doesn't make a difference for these guys, they're already wealthy enough.
Here I think you got confused: when I talk about supporting EU teams out of lack of choice, I meant that a German, for example, doesn't have the option to support a German esports team simply because that team doesn't exist. They have no choice - they either support teams from EMEA (their continent/region) or they don't support anyone. A Brazilian player can play wherever they want but that won't necessarily attract Brazilian fans to their respective team. From there, you mixed in an opinion I gave about e-sports (in the previous post) with the Europe-Brazil relationship in football, so I don't need to answer something confusing...
ur neither convincing nor confusing anyone with ur delusional hyper-jingoistic takes. in ur first paragraph, you conveniently talk about how BR exports resulted in an exposure to their playing style and create "equalized" football without acknowledging the fact that said BR talent also benefited from developed training facilities and tactics being developed in EU. Not to mention, BR clubs making money off their sales. Neither do u mention how it is the failure of BR clubs to retain their talent and these trade secrets of football but somehow it is the fault of EU for not being xenophobic and accepting BR talents into their much advanced training facilities and provide extravagant life only for them to return to BR and represent BR in international competitions. yours are not facts, just convenient stories to support ur narrative of BR vs the world and how everyone has connived to deny u a WC for 20 years except ur own faults.
again ur wrong in second paragraph. messi didnt leave barca for champions league there was more to it. there is no competitiveness angle to choosing PSG for Neymar either, he couldve easily chosen more competitive environment. cr7 is 38 and has 5? champion leagues so yh he prioritized money aswell.
again there is nothing convincing or confusing about this hyper-jingoistic take of urs. i have probably visited more countries and experienced cultures to tell u that none of what u are saying is alien to me - i know and i've seen people with such beliefs - it is usually propagated by corrupt politicians in their countries which makes them believe their country is special and everyone is against them. u made a snide remark basically saying "hey EU u guys just support continent cause no country is able to provide 5 individual players who can rep u like LOUD could with BR hahaha" but as i mentioned most countries in EU can hit back at u in 100 areas where there is no BR representation and in valorant/cs as per the population ratio if u have 5 good players compared to 2 or 3 from Germany or Spain - thats not even a bad ratio to be clowning about - u have 5 times their individual populations.
kskm [#139]ur neither convincing nor confusing anyone with ur delusional hyper-jingoistic takes. in ur first paragraph, you conveniently talk about how BR exports resulted in an exposure to their playing style and create "equalized" football without acknowledging the fact that said BR talent also benefited from developed training facilities and tactics being developed in EU. Not to mention, BR clubs making money off their sales. Neither do u mention how it is the failure of BR clubs to retain their talent and these trade secrets of football but somehow it is the fault of EU for not being xenophobic and accepting BR talents into their much advanced training facilities and provide extravagant life only for them to return to BR and represent BR in international competitions. yours are not facts, just convenient stories to support ur narrative of BR vs the world and how everyone has connived to deny u a WC for 20 years except ur own faults.
again ur wrong in second paragraph. messi didnt leave barca for champions league there was more to it. there is no competitiveness angle to choosing PSG for Neymar either, he couldve easily chosen more competitive environment. cr7 is 38 and has 5? champion leagues so yh he prioritized money aswell.
again there is nothing convincing or confusing about this hyper-jingoistic take of urs. i have probably visited more countries and experienced cultures to tell u that none of what u are saying is alien to me - i know and i've seen people with such beliefs - it is usually propagated by corrupt politicians in their countries which makes them believe their country is special and everyone is against them. u made a snide remark basically saying "hey EU u guys just support continent cause no country is able to provide 5 individual players who can rep u like LOUD could with BR hahaha" but as i mentioned most countries in EU can hit back at u in 100 areas where there is no BR representation and in valorant/cs as per the population ratio if u have 5 good players compared to 2 or 3 from Germany or Spain - thats not even a bad ratio to be clowning about - u have 5 times their individual populations.
The Brazilian didn't benefit from European training facilities because they weren't models or pioneers in anything related to football. Football wasn't developed enough to possess technologies capable of providing any competitive advantage. You just made a mistaken statement here. "Brazilian clubs made money from selling players" - OBVIOUS? That doesn't change anything, I don't even know what your point was here. I don't know what your problem with reading comprehension is, but in none of my previous comments did I imply that it's "Europe's fault" or that it's "Brazil vs. the world". That's just in your head and has nothing to do with the points we're arguing. I mentioned the 20 years without titles (just like the first 3 World Cups) just to reinforce that playing in Europe isn't a quality benchmark, supporting the evidence that our best time was when Brazilians played in Brazilian leagues - a coincidence. I don't need to summarize this again, right? Just read the first point of my previous comment, It's very clear. You're very confusing when trying to convey your ideas and you confuse sentiment with rationality.
Here you are mistaken again. Source: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12378621/lionel-messi-reveals-he-chose-to-join-paris-saint-germain-in-order-to-win-fifth-champions-league Messi and Neymar went to PSG to win the Champions League. At the time it was a big challenge and they (PSG management) were building a competitive team to try to win the Champions League for the first time. An ambitious project. Obviously, CR7 chose to play in the Middle East for money, and I didn't even question that. If you read what I wrote earlier carefully, you wouldn't have tried to refute me with this senseless argument. What I said was - when CR7 chose money, he was heavily criticized. Why was he criticized? Remember? Exactly, because there is low competitiveness and little visibility in the championships there. Athletes PRIORITIZE competitiveness. Depending on the circumstances, it MAY BE that he chooses money and goes to play, I don't know, in China.
Here I can conclude by saying that personal experiences do not serve as a scientific parameter or a ground on which you will base your absolute truths and misconceptions. It only takes one person who has gone through and experienced the same things as you and brings an opinion completely contrary to yours for your argument to completely lose its validity. Again, I have nothing to argue here due to a lack of useful information.
Astroman77 [#141]The Brazilian didn't benefit from European training facilities because they weren't models or pioneers in anything related to football. Football wasn't developed enough to possess technologies capable of providing any competitive advantage. You just made a mistaken statement here. "Brazilian clubs made money from selling players" - OBVIOUS? That doesn't change anything, I don't even know what your point was here. I don't know what your problem with reading comprehension is, but in none of my previous comments did I imply that it's "Europe's fault" or that it's "Brazil vs. the world". That's just in your head and has nothing to do with the points we're arguing. I mentioned the 20 years without titles (just like the first 3 World Cups) just to reinforce that playing in Europe isn't a quality benchmark, supporting the evidence that our best time was when Brazilians played in Brazilian leagues - a coincidence. I don't need to summarize this again, right? Just read the first point of my previous comment, It's very clear. You're very confusing when trying to convey your ideas and you confuse sentiment with rationality.
Here you are mistaken again. Source: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12378621/lionel-messi-reveals-he-chose-to-join-paris-saint-germain-in-order-to-win-fifth-champions-league Messi and Neymar went to PSG to win the Champions League. At the time it was a big challenge and they (PSG management) were building a competitive team to try to win the Champions League for the first time. An ambitious project. Obviously, CR7 chose to play in the Middle East for money, and I didn't even question that. If you read what I wrote earlier carefully, you wouldn't have tried to refute me with this senseless argument. What I said was - when CR7 chose money, he was heavily criticized. Why was he criticized? Remember? Exactly, because there is low competitiveness and little visibility in the championships there. Athletes PRIORITIZE competitiveness. Depending on the circumstances, it MAY BE that he chooses money and goes to play, I don't know, in China.
Here I can conclude by saying that personal experiences do not serve as a scientific parameter or a ground on which you will base your absolute truths and misconceptions. It only takes one person who has gone through and experienced the same things as you and brings an opinion completely contrary to yours for your argument to completely lose its validity. Again, I have nothing to argue here due to a lack of useful information.
Delusional if you think Brazilians did not benefit from EU clubs - you yourself said they are more competitive - who gets the credit for developing and maintaining that competitiveness in the scene? Is it not the EU clubs? Go compare the budget of any big EU club with any BR club for training, physical therapy, medical treatments, food and nutrition. If you think any random ass person without proper coaching, training, nutrition and facilities can become the next Ronaldo then you are delusional beyond measure. It is not just the technique of playing football and yes EU did develop their own tactics and techniques in football too which have won them several trophies - things which Brazilians benefitted from and took them back to their country. It is a 2 way street and the fact EU appreciates talent irrespective of nationality and doesn't shun BR players saying why would we support players outside of our country is appreciable - but I guess you cannot understand as u cant even stand to applaud EU victory over ur beloved BR - its called sportsmanship. I think in the whole deal - BR benefits from this deal more than EU does. BR clubs make money by selling players but they cant use that money to retain and make their clubs as good as EU clubs? Isnt that a failure of BR clubs and Brazilians in general? You say no EU country has 5 valo players to support their country so they are forced to support EU in general - can i say that no Brazilian club inspite of having 5x population and craze behind football can create and sustain a club that can stand up to big EU clubs? Im sure most of you would skip ur local teams match to watch UEFA champions league final - an European tournament.
In the link you gave me, it clearly says Messi's contract couldnt be fullfilled at Barca because of their financial situation at the time. So he didnt just leave for CL - there is an added and important reason that he could not continue at Barca and btw he is in talks to go back to Barca. It just says PSG gave him the best deal where he has the chance to win his 5TH CL - thats not even the main reason why. You in your first statement said all players prioritize competitiveness over money - which I refuted with Ronaldo and Neymar's example. There are several such examples of players going to clubs with bigger money irrespective of how competitive the environment would be - ofcourse none of them would admit and say we went for the bag - you can google for more such players. You simply made a generalized statement saying everyone prefers competitive > money which is not true. Nobody cares if Ronaldo got criticized for the move - the fact he took the decision is reason enough to refute ur claim of comp>money.
Hyper - jingoism is sold by politicians across the globe. In America, these idiots cry "buy american, make america great again" I dont wanna get into polit*cs here but these people live the most miserable lives who have nothing to show for themselves so they hide behind the flag. This jingoism is saddest in poorer and underdeveloped nations like Brazil because it is sold by corrupt politicians who will turn each and every situation and make it about the country. People eat this shit up and never question their own country or leaders and get worked up trying to defend their country online. You are a victim here - next time you get up and ask rich EU countries why they dont have 5 valorant players to cheer for - ask Brazilian clubs why cant we retain BR talent and make EU guys come play for us? Why cant we buy optic players or fnatic players.. how come Sacy and pancada leave to go to US? these questions are uncomfortable but truly patriotic - these questions benefit Brazil more than your original question would ever benefit Brazil. i have nothing else to say to you, have a good rest of ur life. sorry if i hurt u.
Astroman77 [#131]I stated facts, I didn't say I'm proud of them...
No, you literally said we're "missing that amazing rush, that feeling of total fulfillment because we will never get to see a 'guess the rank' video in our native language"
Miserable lmfao
Astroman77 [#50]Argentines don't root for us, much less for Loud... It's not even necessary to ask. In Brazil, there are different cultures, but everyone is Brazilian and speaks the same language, just like in the United States. You don't have to be racist or judge someone just because you don't want to root for teams with players from other countries who don't even speak your language. You're not racist for not rooting for DRX or T1, for example...
What does it mean to be Brazilian? Speaking the same language? Because the Portuguese and Macau ppl also do that. Also, Americans speak the same language that the UK, Australia, South Africa and many more nations speak.
Astroman77 [#101]First: People can do that, but it seems like they don't like to admit that they do it because they don't have any other choice. Especially Europeans. It's not like a Spaniard wakes up and thinks, "what a lovely day, today I'm going to root for my country's team in Valorant/LOL/CS (whatever)." They simply don't have that alternative and, due to this circumstance, they are led to root for a region (EMEA) with foreign players from several different countries. This is not an opinion, it's just a hard truth to swallow. But gradually, they will be able to overcome this. Second: I root for Loud not because they are Brazilian, since Furia and Mibr are also Brazilian teams and I don't root for them. I root for IDENTIFICATION. Did something happen between September 1st and 20th that made you lose your sanity to the point of not understanding my point? Look at the thread title!
Rooting for the famously brazilian IGL Saadhak.
Amazing.
unserious [#22]Yeah Loud won champs with the help of Saadhak and frod.
European teams normally have a common language between the players, this is normally English.I don't feel like Koi fans would get xenophobic over Koi not having a full Spanish roster?
Winning is most important to fans and organisations.
Whilst they do try to balance this why national pride, winning is still the priority.
? was frod assisting coach cause he wasn't head coach at the time
Astroman77 [#32]The French, Germans, Italians, and many other European countries are like that. If you root for a region and for foreigners within the same continent, admit it and say out loud: "Okay, my country is weak in any esports, so I have to root for a team made up of players from other countries and pretend that I'm not a nationalist."
this is entirely false, Germany is like one of the least nationalist countries in Europe with most people not even willing to join the army if an event of a war
emirerays [#63]Brazil education
This thread is stupid but he is right, here…
He never talked about race at all.
You can be an east asian (chinese/korean japanese) ethnically or racially but still be brazilian (or any other nationality you can think of, works for everyone). Hes talked about supporting ppl from brazil not onky supporting white people or latinos etc etc.
Nationality =/= race.
He is not talking about race at all.
Astroman77 [#79]I don't know either, can you explain to me why the majority here got angry with this FACT?
honestly i couldnt tell you why people are mad but i also understand that nobody gets why you think it matters if u root for a team that speaks ur language or not
Astroman77 [#6]Good, so you admit that you root for a region, not for your country or for people who speak your language, right?
i can root for my country bc there's no vct spanish team in general, ofc i support giants heretics and koi but i like to see my region win
kskm [#143]Delusional if you think Brazilians did not benefit from EU clubs - you yourself said they are more competitive - who gets the credit for developing and maintaining that competitiveness in the scene? Is it not the EU clubs? Go compare the budget of any big EU club with any BR club for training, physical therapy, medical treatments, food and nutrition. If you think any random ass person without proper coaching, training, nutrition and facilities can become the next Ronaldo then you are delusional beyond measure. It is not just the technique of playing football and yes EU did develop their own tactics and techniques in football too which have won them several trophies - things which Brazilians benefitted from and took them back to their country. It is a 2 way street and the fact EU appreciates talent irrespective of nationality and doesn't shun BR players saying why would we support players outside of our country is appreciable - but I guess you cannot understand as u cant even stand to applaud EU victory over ur beloved BR - its called sportsmanship. I think in the whole deal - BR benefits from this deal more than EU does. BR clubs make money by selling players but they cant use that money to retain and make their clubs as good as EU clubs? Isnt that a failure of BR clubs and Brazilians in general? You say no EU country has 5 valo players to support their country so they are forced to support EU in general - can i say that no Brazilian club inspite of having 5x population and craze behind football can create and sustain a club that can stand up to big EU clubs? Im sure most of you would skip ur local teams match to watch UEFA champions league final - an European tournament.
In the link you gave me, it clearly says Messi's contract couldnt be fullfilled at Barca because of their financial situation at the time. So he didnt just leave for CL - there is an added and important reason that he could not continue at Barca and btw he is in talks to go back to Barca. It just says PSG gave him the best deal where he has the chance to win his 5TH CL - thats not even the main reason why. You in your first statement said all players prioritize competitiveness over money - which I refuted with Ronaldo and Neymar's example. There are several such examples of players going to clubs with bigger money irrespective of how competitive the environment would be - ofcourse none of them would admit and say we went for the bag - you can google for more such players. You simply made a generalized statement saying everyone prefers competitive > money which is not true. Nobody cares if Ronaldo got criticized for the move - the fact he took the decision is reason enough to refute ur claim of comp>money.
Hyper - jingoism is sold by politicians across the globe. In America, these idiots cry "buy american, make america great again" I dont wanna get into polit*cs here but these people live the most miserable lives who have nothing to show for themselves so they hide behind the flag. This jingoism is saddest in poorer and underdeveloped nations like Brazil because it is sold by corrupt politicians who will turn each and every situation and make it about the country. People eat this shit up and never question their own country or leaders and get worked up trying to defend their country online. You are a victim here - next time you get up and ask rich EU countries why they dont have 5 valorant players to cheer for - ask Brazilian clubs why cant we retain BR talent and make EU guys come play for us? Why cant we buy optic players or fnatic players.. how come Sacy and pancada leave to go to US? these questions are uncomfortable but truly patriotic - these questions benefit Brazil more than your original question would ever benefit Brazil. i have nothing else to say to you, have a good rest of ur life. sorry if i hurt u.
As I said before 'Football wasn’t developed enough to possess technologies capable of providing any competitive advantage'. This is not an opinion. The football technologies used by the wealthiest European clubs (currently) did not exist in the past. In purely structural matters, everything was level. You confuse verb tenses or manipulate them in a way that is convenient for you to think you are refuting something beyond ghosts in your mind. With globalization and football development, ways of gaining advantages on the field began to emerge (here the roles of clubs in athlete formation come in) beyond purely individual and collective skills. "Who gets the credit for developing and maintaining that competitiveness in the scene? Is it not the EU clubs?" Just to clarify, according to IFFHS, the strongest league in the world is the Brazilian one: (https://www.iffhs.com/posts/2483). Answering your question: competitiveness is maintained because the best players are there, and the best (the vast majority) are imported from other regions. The fairest credit we can give to European clubs is that they have enough money to buy players from anywhere in the world to keep their league always at a high level. The MLS, for example, has structure but lacks competitiveness. No player aspires to play in the American league because it is very weak. And it is weak because it does not have the best players. The club's structure is just a drop in the ocean. As for Brazilian clubs: as you yourself say, it is a two-way street - we contribute to the evolution and maintenance of European football by exporting our best players while Brazilian clubs benefit by earning billions per year with player transfers. The biggest Brazilian clubs are not behind the European average when it comes to training centers, food, structure, etc. I don't know where you got this completely wrong idea. It is a fact that European giants, like Real Madrid, have a unique quality, but they have a high standard even for most other clubs in their league. To finish this part - Flamengo, for example, one of the richest teams in Brazil, in 2022 was the 18th club with the highest payroll in the world. (https://www.uol.com.br/esporte/futebol/colunas/rafael-reis/2022/08/26/fla-tem-a-18-maior-folha-salarial-do-mundo-4-brasileiros-estao-no-top-50.htm) Not to mention that there are clubs managed as if they were companies (SAF), where they manage to have a large net annual income enough to provide an excellent quality structure. (https://www.scielo.br/j/rac/a/qCtMycKvdT7rSq5cgF3sPHM/)
"can i say that no Brazilian club inspite of having 5x population and craze behind football can create and sustain a club that can stand up to big EU clubs?"
With this question, you show again your total lack of knowledge about the subject. The only way we can know if the best Brazilian club currently is better than the best European club currently is through the Club World Cup that takes place every year. Well, Brazil has already won this championship TEN times, against giants like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Liverpool, Milan, Manchester, among others. We are only behind Spain, which has won 12 times. And this is largely due to Real Madrid and their crop of good players. (https://ge.globo.com/futebol/mundial-de-clubes/noticia/2023/02/11/mundial-de-clubes-lista-completa-de-campeoes-e-finais.ghtml)
Football players are competitive athletes by nature and often prioritize the pursuit of victory and personal success over other considerations, including higher salaries. For these players, competition is the essence of sport, and the pursuit of victory is a powerful motivation. Many players choose to play for teams that offer the opportunity to compete at a high level, even if it means earning less money than they could elsewhere. As I mentioned before, athletes PRIORITIZE competitiveness and depending on the circumstances, they may opt for money. Cristiano Ronaldo is 38 years old, nearing retirement and no longer has the same stamina as he did when he was younger. His choices are limited, so deciding to play for a less competitive club that offers more money is a circumstance that would not have been taken into consideration when he was 25 years old and one of the best in the world. At that time, even if he received a billionaire offer to play in the Middle East with a higher salary than he was receiving, he would certainly prioritize Real Madrid to continue playing in Europe because he was at his peak and knew that the competitiveness of playing in a high-level league spoke louder than the best salaries. In summary: CR7 "choosing money" is a circumstance of events that happened and led him to make that decision. This exception was included in the argumentation of the previous post. After all, I am not crazy enough to deny that many opt for money. Messi wanting to return to Barcelona and earn less than he does at PSG is further irrefutable proof that money has no weight on the athlete's decision. The PSG project failed. They hired several top players and still failed to achieve their goal of becoming champions of the Champions League.
Again here, you use personal experiences and particular impressions to express an opinion as if it were an absolute truth or deserving of some credit. Politics are based on narratives, not truths/lies. Whoever is in power holds the current narrative. I thought you knew that. When you talk about nationalism, you demonstrate again that you don't understand anything about what you're talking about. Just to clarify: Nationalism is a political ideology that defends national identity as something primordial and prioritizes the interests of the nation over individual interests or those of other nations. There are people who do not identify with this ideology and who may have different political views. It has nothing to do with patriotism, which is basically love and loyalty to the homeland, respect for the country, etc. Patriotism does not necessarily involve a belief and is the closest thing you can correlate with Brazilian e-sports fans. Nothing to do with Brazilian politics and the nationalism 'sold' by other countries. When you state that "Brazilian teams don't buy European players," you show again how ignorant you are and speak whatever comes to mind, without any foundation. FURIA has a team with American players, European players in various games. A Brazilian organization. If you want to follow them closely, just go to FURIA's English Twitter: (https://twitter.com/FURIA_USA) One of the best Valorant coaches was bought by Loud, and he is... American. I hope I have answered everything and clarified the topics.
Pondy [#150]Because a normal person's sense of national identity isn't dependent on how their country does in a video game.
I have nothing against those who support a continent. Just admit that you do it, and if there were a competitive team composed only of players from your country, you would support the national team more than 5 foreigners from any EMEA team.
Astroman77 [#157]I have nothing against those who support a continent. Just admit that you do it, and if there were a competitive team composed only of players from your country, you would support the national team more than 5 foreigners from any EMEA team.
Astroman77, its esports, you support you favorite team. you're not tied to a single country. This is not the world cup
You dont even support a team with all the players from the same country.... hypocrite
xD1LL4N [#158]Astroman77, its esports, you support you favorite team. you're not tied to a single country. This is not the world cup
You dont even support a team with all the players from the same country.... hypocrite
I noticed that most of those who attack me don't have a team from their own country to support, so it's understandable that when I say these things, I directly attack a belief rooted in some that "it's cool to support 5 foreigners. I support them like never before. No patriotism here!" - you just haven't thought yet that this concept/thought of yours was created in a completely forced way due to lack of choice and options. You can't choose to support a team from the UK (your country) instead of any other team from EMEA, because you simply don't have that option. You MUST ATTACK those who defend the idea that the feeling is much better when there are 5 players from your own country. But it's like you're trying to hide the sun with a sieve. You have to defend the idea that "I have fun and support 5 people who don't even speak my language", because it's the only basis that sustains your support for any team. Without this concept formed forcibly due to lack of choice, you wouldn't have anyone to support. Lack of choice is the key word here.
Astroman77 [#157]I have nothing against those who support a continent. Just admit that you do it, and if there were a competitive team composed only of players from your country, you would support the national team more than 5 foreigners from any EMEA team.
most europeans dont have any pride in being european to the point where they will literally cry and post thousand word long responses to people who say someone from that region is bad at a video game. My favourite teams are DRX (I love the way they play), EG (I like an underdog and I like demon1) and GE (same as EG but skrossi), I find emea not as interesting as there is barely any content or drama and the games are all pretty predictable.
What you need to realise is, theres nothing wrong with supporting a team from your own country. The weird thing is when you expect everyone in the world to also love that team, and then shit talk and cry when people dont. How many threads from people from France do you see crying about how everyone makes fun of their team for being shit and calling everyone racist when they say there arent any good french players. Your nationalism needs to be checked sometimes, nothing wrong with being proud of where you are from, but just chill out, no one else cares about you being from brazil
Astroman77 [#159]I noticed that most of those who attack me don't have a team from their own country to support, so it's understandable that when I say these things, I directly attack a belief rooted in some that "it's cool to support 5 foreigners. I support them like never before. No patriotism here!" - you just haven't thought yet that this concept/thought of yours was created in a completely forced way due to lack of choice and options. You can't choose to support a team from the UK (your country) instead of any other team from EMEA, because you simply don't have that option. You MUST ATTACK those who defend the idea that the feeling is much better when there are 5 players from your own country. But it's like you're trying to hide the sun with a sieve. You have to defend the idea that "I have fun and support 5 people who don't even speak my language", because it's the only basis that sustains your support for any team. Without this concept formed forcibly due to lack of choice, you wouldn't have anyone to support. Lack of choice is the key word here.
not reading all that, i know you're a braindead nationalist.
this isn't the world cup buddy, anyone can support whatever team they want free of judgement.
you probably never left brazil so you're a hardcore nationalist. Hope you get help soon
xD1LL4N [#161]not reading all that, i know you're a braindead nationalist.
this isn't the world cup buddy, anyone can support whatever team they want free of judgement.
you probably never left brazil so you're a hardcore nationalist. Hope you get help soon
It has nothing to do with nationalism, you probably don't even know what that is. You're acting like a communist who plays the victim/racism/xenophobia card when they can't counter argue against being strongly attacked in their personal beliefs.
Astroman77 [#162]It has nothing to do with nationalism, you probably don't even know what that is. You're acting like a communist who plays the victim/racism/xenophobia card when they can't counter argue against being strongly attacked in their personal beliefs.
You strongly believe you should only support a team with all the players from that country. Which you dont even follow otherwise you would be a Furia FAN.
You are uneducated and wrong about this whole topic. You act like the victim. you call everyone foreigners like its a bad thing and then call others xenophobic. you're a troll
xD1LL4N [#163]You strongly believe you should only support a team with all the players from that country. Which you dont even follow otherwise you would be a Furia FAN.
You are uneducated and wrong about this whole topic. You act like the victim. you call everyone foreigners like its a bad thing and then call others xenophobic. you're a troll
A team composed of only 1 or 2 foreigners, but who still speak the same language is different from a team composed of 5 foreigners, each speaking a different language. You are just avoiding and afraid to answer my previous post in which you yourself said "not reading all". Read and respond. Stop behaving like a victim.
Astroman77 [#165]A team composed of only 1 or 2 foreigners, but who still speak the same language is different from a team composed of 5 foreigners, each speaking a different language. You are just avoiding and afraid to answer my previous post in which you yourself said "not reading all". Read and respond. Stop behaving like a victim.
They dont speak different Language????
i wont read it because you're a braind user. No rational thought goes into your message.
xD1LL4N [#166]They dont speak different Language????
i wont read it because you're a braind user. No rational thought goes into your message.
See how you have no knowledge about what you're talking about? No. Saadhak and Frod communicate in Portuguese.
Astroman77 [#167]See how you have no knowledge about what you're talking about? No. Saadhak and Frod communicate in Portuguese.
do you think fnatic communicate in their native languages and just guess what eachother are saying???? please use your brain for 1 second
Astroman77 [#167]See how you have no knowledge about what you're talking about? No. Saadhak and Frod communicate in Portuguese.
You are so dumb, can't believe i fell for your bait.
Never forget the 11-3 choke
ambo69 [#164]i think its pretty sad that you see the world as Brazillian and not Brazillian
It's either too stupid or lacking in character to take the discussion in this direction. Brazilians aren't even a race. There's no way to distinguish them, let alone classify people as "Brazilians and non-Brazilians."
ortuh [#168]do you think fnatic communicate in their native languages and just guess what eachother are saying???? please use your brain for 1 second
I just answered your question. Saadhak and Frod had to adapt to the language of Brazilians. In Fnatic, players speak EN-US because it is the most known and influential language in the world... What's your point here?
xD1LL4N [#169]You are so dumb, can't believe i fell for your bait.
Never forget the 11-3 choke
And you're not only stupid, but also lazy.
BR Champions: 1
UK Champions: 0
Astroman77 [#172]And you're not only stupid, but also lazy.
BR Champions: 1
UK Champions: 0
EU Lans wins - 4
SA Lan wins -1
Brazil never had a competive team until LOUD.
before that they were the laughing stock region.
You guys supported KRU for ages
Astroman77 [#170]It's either too stupid or lacking in character to take the discussion in this direction. Brazilians aren't even a race. There's no way to distinguish them, let alone classify people as "Brazilians and non-Brazilians."
very globalist of you to admit that
xD1LL4N [#173]EU Lans wins - 4
SA Lan wins -1Brazil never had a competive team until LOUD.
before that they were the laughing stock region.You guys supported KRU for ages
Your comfort zone is talking about a continent having more titles than the only relevant country in SA? Hahahahahahaha
Astroman77 [#171]I just answered your question. Saadhak and Frod had to adapt to the language of Brazilians. In Fnatic, players speak EN-US because it is the most known and influential language in the world... What's your point here?
whats your point? speaking the language means I must support them? them all speaking english is bad? once again europe is a real place that exists outside of video games, english is a second language for a lot of europeans. I'm sure if everyone on fnatic spoke fluent mandarin they would all use that to communicate.
Also all of NA speak english as their first language, does that mean they all love fnatic and giants? You are speaking to me in english right now, why dont you support a random UK university team? You can't just say a random thing and then go "haha point disproven, you are so stupid".
Astroman77 [#175]Your comfort zone is talking about a continent having more titles than the only relevant country in SA? Hahahahahahaha
Seee you keep proving you're a hardcore nationalist xenophobe.
why does foreigners scare you so much ?
Astroman77 [#157]I have nothing against those who support a continent. Just admit that you do it, and if there were a competitive team composed only of players from your country, you would support the national team more than 5 foreigners from any EMEA team.
Lmao no the OCE teams are low key hot garbage. I’d rather support a team that knows what they’re doing.
Astroman77 [#135]It doesn't have to be a football team, but it's much less interesting to root for 5 foreigners from 5 different countries who speak 5 different languages. But I understand, that's the only option for most people who root for teams in EMEA.
Dude, where did you get this 'less interesting' thing? It's obviously nice when everyone in your favorite club is from your country, but it is the exception rather than the norm. It's hella cringe to tell someone that they are less interested. Most people support clubs from other countries that have players from all over the world
EdmondN1 [#181]How does it feel to be a brazilian and to speak another country's language, like portuguese (Portugal)?
#punintended
It doesn't change anything, the most influential Portuguese in the world is Brazilian Portuguese. All games and movies are subtitled and dubbed in Brazilian Portuguese. When you have to select a language and "Portuguese" appears - there's the Brazilian flag next to it. It's like EN-US. Most people only speak American English, nobody cares about British English, which is terrible by the way.
Pondy [#179]Lmao no the OCE teams are low key hot garbage. I’d rather support a team that knows what they’re doing.
W
Astroman77 [#183]It doesn't change anything, the most influential Portuguese in the world is Brazilian Portuguese. All games and movies are subtitled and dubbed in Brazilian Portuguese. When you have to select a language and "Portuguese" appears - there's the Brazilian flag next to it. It's like EN-US. Most people only speak American English, nobody cares about British English, which is terrible by the way.
So you basically found the answer to your question on your own (Why do people are rooting for teams outside their own country). Well done!
Aladeeen [#186]8/8
You made a historical thread lil bro
Thank you. If you really are Palestinian, I hope your people find peace!
EdmondN1 [#185]So you basically found the answer to your question on your own (Why do people are rooting for teams outside their own country). Well done!
Wow, I'm talking to Aristotle
Astroman77 [#188]Thank you. If you really are Palestinian, I hope your people find peace!
Ty but I’m a fake flagger
rumbledink [#187]Feels pretty great rooting for a team that I have a connection with instead of blind nationalism. How does it feel having 0 iq?
My guy literally made an entire thread trying to flex other people's achievements 💀
Astroman77 [#155]As I said before 'Football wasn’t developed enough to possess technologies capable of providing any competitive advantage'. This is not an opinion. The football technologies used by the wealthiest European clubs (currently) did not exist in the past. In purely structural matters, everything was level. You confuse verb tenses or manipulate them in a way that is convenient for you to think you are refuting something beyond ghosts in your mind. With globalization and football development, ways of gaining advantages on the field began to emerge (here the roles of clubs in athlete formation come in) beyond purely individual and collective skills. "Who gets the credit for developing and maintaining that competitiveness in the scene? Is it not the EU clubs?" Just to clarify, according to IFFHS, the strongest league in the world is the Brazilian one: (https://www.iffhs.com/posts/2483). Answering your question: competitiveness is maintained because the best players are there, and the best (the vast majority) are imported from other regions. The fairest credit we can give to European clubs is that they have enough money to buy players from anywhere in the world to keep their league always at a high level. The MLS, for example, has structure but lacks competitiveness. No player aspires to play in the American league because it is very weak. And it is weak because it does not have the best players. The club's structure is just a drop in the ocean. As for Brazilian clubs: as you yourself say, it is a two-way street - we contribute to the evolution and maintenance of European football by exporting our best players while Brazilian clubs benefit by earning billions per year with player transfers. The biggest Brazilian clubs are not behind the European average when it comes to training centers, food, structure, etc. I don't know where you got this completely wrong idea. It is a fact that European giants, like Real Madrid, have a unique quality, but they have a high standard even for most other clubs in their league. To finish this part - Flamengo, for example, one of the richest teams in Brazil, in 2022 was the 18th club with the highest payroll in the world. (https://www.uol.com.br/esporte/futebol/colunas/rafael-reis/2022/08/26/fla-tem-a-18-maior-folha-salarial-do-mundo-4-brasileiros-estao-no-top-50.htm) Not to mention that there are clubs managed as if they were companies (SAF), where they manage to have a large net annual income enough to provide an excellent quality structure. (https://www.scielo.br/j/rac/a/qCtMycKvdT7rSq5cgF3sPHM/)
"can i say that no Brazilian club inspite of having 5x population and craze behind football can create and sustain a club that can stand up to big EU clubs?"
With this question, you show again your total lack of knowledge about the subject. The only way we can know if the best Brazilian club currently is better than the best European club currently is through the Club World Cup that takes place every year. Well, Brazil has already won this championship TEN times, against giants like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Liverpool, Milan, Manchester, among others. We are only behind Spain, which has won 12 times. And this is largely due to Real Madrid and their crop of good players. (https://ge.globo.com/futebol/mundial-de-clubes/noticia/2023/02/11/mundial-de-clubes-lista-completa-de-campeoes-e-finais.ghtml)Football players are competitive athletes by nature and often prioritize the pursuit of victory and personal success over other considerations, including higher salaries. For these players, competition is the essence of sport, and the pursuit of victory is a powerful motivation. Many players choose to play for teams that offer the opportunity to compete at a high level, even if it means earning less money than they could elsewhere. As I mentioned before, athletes PRIORITIZE competitiveness and depending on the circumstances, they may opt for money. Cristiano Ronaldo is 38 years old, nearing retirement and no longer has the same stamina as he did when he was younger. His choices are limited, so deciding to play for a less competitive club that offers more money is a circumstance that would not have been taken into consideration when he was 25 years old and one of the best in the world. At that time, even if he received a billionaire offer to play in the Middle East with a higher salary than he was receiving, he would certainly prioritize Real Madrid to continue playing in Europe because he was at his peak and knew that the competitiveness of playing in a high-level league spoke louder than the best salaries. In summary: CR7 "choosing money" is a circumstance of events that happened and led him to make that decision. This exception was included in the argumentation of the previous post. After all, I am not crazy enough to deny that many opt for money. Messi wanting to return to Barcelona and earn less than he does at PSG is further irrefutable proof that money has no weight on the athlete's decision. The PSG project failed. They hired several top players and still failed to achieve their goal of becoming champions of the Champions League.
Again here, you use personal experiences and particular impressions to express an opinion as if it were an absolute truth or deserving of some credit. Politics are based on narratives, not truths/lies. Whoever is in power holds the current narrative. I thought you knew that. When you talk about nationalism, you demonstrate again that you don't understand anything about what you're talking about. Just to clarify: Nationalism is a political ideology that defends national identity as something primordial and prioritizes the interests of the nation over individual interests or those of other nations. There are people who do not identify with this ideology and who may have different political views. It has nothing to do with patriotism, which is basically love and loyalty to the homeland, respect for the country, etc. Patriotism does not necessarily involve a belief and is the closest thing you can correlate with Brazilian e-sports fans. Nothing to do with Brazilian politics and the nationalism 'sold' by other countries. When you state that "Brazilian teams don't buy European players," you show again how ignorant you are and speak whatever comes to mind, without any foundation. FURIA has a team with American players, European players in various games. A Brazilian organization. If you want to follow them closely, just go to FURIA's English Twitter: (https://twitter.com/FURIA_USA) One of the best Valorant coaches was bought by Loud, and he is... American. I hope I have answered everything and clarified the topics.
bro wrote a book and yet missed to address everything - just pasting nonsense articles, cherry picking facts to build a narrative - you are only fooling yourself.
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its fact not opinion : any BR player would jump to go to EU because its better. EU doesnt discriminate so they allow talent from anywhere and get behind them and support them - it doesnt matter their nationality or language or race or color of skin. BR has been a HUGE beneficiary of this benevolence. Based on how BR crowds act in esports it seems they are incapable of basic sportsmanship.
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second paragraph filled with ur own opinion - u dont speak for any player - they decide if they wanna play for money or competitiveness and they are free to chose either. plenty of examples of people who chose either.
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thats a chat gpt ass paragraph defining terms that u probably dont know anything about. Your original question reeks of jingoism and self praise. Here are some questions which i asked earlier : do u just drive jap/eu/usa cars cause BR cars suck? do u just use smartphones made in China cause BR phones suck? do u just play games made by American/Chinese video game companies like Riot and Valve cause BR cant make video games? omg it must be such a bad feeling for not having so many good things which have a BR tag on it that u have to support foreign shit!!! - Now this might seem like "facts" to you but these are snide remarks to show how other regions are superior to BR in 10000s of other areas where u are "forced" to support foreign stuff. Every country supports foreign shit to an extent and in a world that is interconnected you cannot have everything available in a single country. Pointing it out like u have in this thread only makes u an asshole.
kskm [#192]bro wrote a book and yet missed to address everything - just pasting nonsense articles, cherry picking facts to build a narrative - you are only fooling yourself.
its fact not opinion : any BR player would jump to go to EU because its better. EU doesnt discriminate so they allow talent from anywhere and get behind them and support them - it doesnt matter their nationality or language or race or color of skin. BR has been a HUGE beneficiary of this benevolence. Based on how BR crowds act in esports it seems they are incapable of basic sportsmanship.
second paragraph filled with ur own opinion - u dont speak for any player - they decide if they wanna play for money or competitiveness and they are free to chose either. plenty of examples of people who chose either.
thats a chat gpt ass paragraph defining terms that u probably dont know anything about. Your original question reeks of jingoism and self praise. Here are some questions which i asked earlier : do u just drive jap/eu/usa cars cause BR cars suck? do u just use smartphones made in China cause BR phones suck? do u just play games made by American/Chinese video game companies like Riot and Valve cause BR cant make video games? omg it must be such a bad feeling for not having so many good things which have a BR tag on it that u have to support foreign shit!!! - Now this might seem like "facts" to you but these are snide remarks to show how other regions are superior to BR in 10000s of other areas where u are "forced" to support foreign stuff. Every country supports foreign shit to an extent and in a world that is interconnected you cannot have everything available in a single country. Pointing it out like u have in this thread only makes u an asshole.
I provided sources to be able to refute your arguments, which were purely based on your own imagination. That's how you argue, not just by typing nonsense like you do, without pointing out any data or proof of what you say. It's important to emphasize that the Brazilian league is the strongest in the world, as this already destroys half of your convictions from the previous post. It's also important to corroborate this by showing that one of the richest clubs in Brazil (Flamengo) has a higher payroll than the average European clubs, so you can't talk the shit you talked about structure, food, routines, etc. I also mentioned that there are clubs that are exceptional even by European standards, such as Real Madrid. The clubs as businesses and their strength in national football. And I refuted your total ignorance about your claim that "we don't have clubs to face the giants of Europe," linking a table with victories by countries in the Club World Cup - here I really got discouraged, as I realized I was talking to a complete layman on the subject (what a surprise).
Brazil has also been very benevolent and charitable (what a wonderful argument, I can use it too) by lending its best athletes to European clubs, thus increasing the level and competitiveness of the championship - as previously stated - it's no use having structure without having the best, if you want to be minimally relevant and have a strong league (whether in sports or e-sports). Poor sportsmanship is a matter of opinion and perspective. Each person has a different opinion and points out things that bother them, which vary from person to person. Until a scientific study is done on this, personal experience cannot be used to corroborate something as an absolute truth. Learn that.
In the second paragraph, I simply narrated events and gave a few opinions, such as when I mentioned CR7 and what he would do at 25 years old if he received a astronomical offer to leave Real Madrid and go to a less competitive league. Regarding Messi, it wasn't an opinion, the link to the article pointing to his desire to win the 5th Champions League (evidence of seeking competitiveness and challenge) is further back.
I didn't say anything beyond mentioning the difference between an ideology and a sentiment. You use the word "jingoism" in a context where it makes no sense. So it's necessary for you to research for yourself the difference between nationalism and patriotism until these concepts crystalize in your mind. I won't explain it again.
I actually forgot to answer those questions (I knew I had forgotten something). Here comes something you might have studied in high school: Protectionism. Which has nothing to do with rooting for EMEA teams because there are no national teams to support. Brazil is not a completely protectionist country, so we have a huge variety of options where we can choose both national and international companies in any sector. There are alternatives. If I only chose national items, your argument would make a little more sense and you could link it to my thoughts on EMEA fans and their team compositions. These are diametrically opposite cases. On the one hand, I contest that supporting five foreigners is forced - due to a lack of options. On the other hand, I have a huge variety of options and can switch between them - it's not forced. Although these are completely horrible examples, they make no sense at all.
Astroman77 [#101]First: People can do that, but it seems like they don't like to admit that they do it because they don't have any other choice. Especially Europeans. It's not like a Spaniard wakes up and thinks, "what a lovely day, today I'm going to root for my country's team in Valorant/LOL/CS (whatever)." They simply don't have that alternative and, due to this circumstance, they are led to root for a region (EMEA) with foreign players from several different countries. This is not an opinion, it's just a hard truth to swallow. But gradually, they will be able to overcome this. Second: I root for Loud not because they are Brazilian, since Furia and Mibr are also Brazilian teams and I don't root for them. I root for IDENTIFICATION. Did something happen between September 1st and 20th that made you lose your sanity to the point of not understanding my point? Look at the thread title!
I’m pretty sure a certain amount of players have to be from the home country as a set rule
Astroman77 [#183]It doesn't change anything, the most influential Portuguese in the world is Brazilian Portuguese. All games and movies are subtitled and dubbed in Brazilian Portuguese. When you have to select a language and "Portuguese" appears - there's the Brazilian flag next to it. It's like EN-US. Most people only speak American English, nobody cares about British English, which is terrible by the way.
Ronaldo owns you
mrGoudas [#191]My guy literally made an entire thread trying to flex other people's achievements 💀
Fero diffs you sadly
I think you are trying to see valorant rooting and supporting with the lens of brazilian football. It's like supporting Corinthians, Flamengo, Palmeiras, etc and then Real Madrid, and I know that seeing Flamengo, Corinthians and Palmeiras win feels WAYYY better than seeing Real Madrid winning and that's because of the sense of community around brazilian football: going to the stadiums, talking to people on the streets about your team, etc.
Since Valorant is an e-sports, the whole sense of community is fundamentally based on the internet, it's very different, my brazilian fellow.
Astroman77 [#172]And you're not only stupid, but also lazy.
BR Champions: 1
UK Champions: 0
BR same amount of champs as Betting site org
Astroman77 [#61]The theory is beautiful. In practice: there's no European football team with less than 6-7 players from the home country; most European esports teams are made up of players of different nationalities (here, local talent doesn't matter); It seems that your excessive insecurity and fear about something we don't know is preventing you from seeing the obvious: your argument is rubbish.
yet teams like arsenal have fielded starting 11s of 11 different nationalities
Astroman77 [#194]I provided sources to be able to refute your arguments, which were purely based on your own imagination. That's how you argue, not just by typing nonsense like you do, without pointing out any data or proof of what you say. It's important to emphasize that the Brazilian league is the strongest in the world, as this already destroys half of your convictions from the previous post. It's also important to corroborate this by showing that one of the richest clubs in Brazil (Flamengo) has a higher payroll than the average European clubs, so you can't talk the shit you talked about structure, food, routines, etc. I also mentioned that there are clubs that are exceptional even by European standards, such as Real Madrid. The clubs as businesses and their strength in national football. And I refuted your total ignorance about your claim that "we don't have clubs to face the giants of Europe," linking a table with victories by countries in the Club World Cup - here I really got discouraged, as I realized I was talking to a complete layman on the subject (what a surprise).
Brazil has also been very benevolent and charitable (what a wonderful argument, I can use it too) by lending its best athletes to European clubs, thus increasing the level and competitiveness of the championship - as previously stated - it's no use having structure without having the best, if you want to be minimally relevant and have a strong league (whether in sports or e-sports). Poor sportsmanship is a matter of opinion and perspective. Each person has a different opinion and points out things that bother them, which vary from person to person. Until a scientific study is done on this, personal experience cannot be used to corroborate something as an absolute truth. Learn that.
In the second paragraph, I simply narrated events and gave a few opinions, such as when I mentioned CR7 and what he would do at 25 years old if he received a astronomical offer to leave Real Madrid and go to a less competitive league. Regarding Messi, it wasn't an opinion, the link to the article pointing to his desire to win the 5th Champions League (evidence of seeking competitiveness and challenge) is further back.
I didn't say anything beyond mentioning the difference between an ideology and a sentiment. You use the word "jingoism" in a context where it makes no sense. So it's necessary for you to research for yourself the difference between nationalism and patriotism until these concepts crystalize in your mind. I won't explain it again.
I actually forgot to answer those questions (I knew I had forgotten something). Here comes something you might have studied in high school: Protectionism. Which has nothing to do with rooting for EMEA teams because there are no national teams to support. Brazil is not a completely protectionist country, so we have a huge variety of options where we can choose both national and international companies in any sector. There are alternatives. If I only chose national items, your argument would make a little more sense and you could link it to my thoughts on EMEA fans and their team compositions. These are diametrically opposite cases. On the one hand, I contest that supporting five foreigners is forced - due to a lack of options. On the other hand, I have a huge variety of options and can switch between them - it's not forced. Although these are completely horrible examples, they make no sense at all.
you did not refute a single argument, as i previously mentioned u are just cherry picking articles and googling stuff to see what fits ur narrative. the org that ranks BR higher is no authority on the subject, there are several other orgs which did their study and ranked BR orgs below EU clubs thus ur 1 article does not refute shit. the simple fact that most BR players will sell their families to play in EU shows which is better and the complete credit goes to EU for being able to maintain that credibility. No one serious would enter and play for a BR club. the whole deal is skewed and benefits BR more than EU as players like Neymar earn their living in EU and go and invest back in BR. Also funny how u even mention Flamengo is 18th as if that makes any sense - there are other things in that article that u could've picked up like "Flamengo spends 1 mil more than Aston Villa" "There are only 3 BR clubs in top 50" "BR has 5x population of every EU country but they dont have money to spend in the sport they are crazy about" -- see classic example of u cherry picking shit to build a narrative but its a failed attempt as I said - you are fooling no one but yourself. Acting as if you are presenting facts and not using personal experience to build an argument is just a farce, you cannot seriously believe what you are typing. To give a better perspective, Cricket is a game which is crazy amongst British colonies - guess which country has the highest paying cricket clubs? Its not England or Australia or any other developed country - but its India followed by Pakistan - two underdeveloped countries run the sport they are crazy about - something BR can learn about. (OMG how does an American know this? Nationality has nothing to do with knowledge)
There is no benevolence from BR - the players dont seek a permission from their government or fanatic jingoists like you before they move out and seek better opportunities in EU. Here EU provides them with the respect they deserve and BR just lets it happen cause they earn some money out of it. It is EU that provides these guys with the respect and facilities - nobody would care if all the BR folks just sit home and play in their own leagues. The world will not miss a thing. Again the only reason EU clubs reach out to them is because they are not xenophobic and wish to nurture, train and THEN use the talent available - worldwide. These are facts not opinions.
there is nothing new here, i already said multiple times it is not written in stone that every player will seek out for competitiveness over money.
Jingoism is the perfect word to describe to ur original post - it reeks of some sort of self-congratulatory message to urself and fellow BR for producing 5 players compared to 2 or 3 by Spain or Germany when u have 5x their population. You have absolutely no clue what you are yapping about and it is feeling like I am talking to an AI at this point. I am well aware of every word that I have used and definitely have a better understanding of those words than you.
LMFAO You have absolutely no fucking idea. How can you be a Brazilian and not know that BR has always been traditionally protectionist state - it levies heavy taxes on goods produced elsewhere and constantly asks companies like the Automobile ones to setup their factories locally. One good example is how iphones cost 50% more in BR compared to US - yet you dont have a single company which can compete with Apple - an American company. I am sure everyone who is rich in BR just uses an iphone. BR actively participates in protectionist policies when it comes to trade but still fails to produce enough industries to rival international competition - unlike countries like China which actually has solid alternatives. You are forced to support a variety of FOREIGN services like Valve, Riot Games, Apple, Google, Microsoft and 100000s of other areas because you DONT have a LOCAL OPTION. A chinese guy can come upto u and say "oh u just use Google an American service because u dont have something like Baido - chinese app developed by CN?" - that question is not sincere - it is self congratulatory and reeks of arrogance and fails to understand that the world is dependent and supporting foreign stuff is inevitable. AGAIN - Having 5X the population of single EU states and only 5-6 more serious valorant players than them is not even something to be proud of.
kskm [#203]you did not refute a single argument, as i previously mentioned u are just cherry picking articles and googling stuff to see what fits ur narrative. the org that ranks BR higher is no authority on the subject, there are several other orgs which did their study and ranked BR orgs below EU clubs thus ur 1 article does not refute shit. the simple fact that most BR players will sell their families to play in EU shows which is better and the complete credit goes to EU for being able to maintain that credibility. No one serious would enter and play for a BR club. the whole deal is skewed and benefits BR more than EU as players like Neymar earn their living in EU and go and invest back in BR. Also funny how u even mention Flamengo is 18th as if that makes any sense - there are other things in that article that u could've picked up like "Flamengo spends 1 mil more than Aston Villa" "There are only 3 BR clubs in top 50" "BR has 5x population of every EU country but they dont have money to spend in the sport they are crazy about" -- see classic example of u cherry picking shit to build a narrative but its a failed attempt as I said - you are fooling no one but yourself. Acting as if you are presenting facts and not using personal experience to build an argument is just a farce, you cannot seriously believe what you are typing. To give a better perspective, Cricket is a game which is crazy amongst British colonies - guess which country has the highest paying cricket clubs? Its not England or Australia or any other developed country - but its India followed by Pakistan - two underdeveloped countries run the sport they are crazy about - something BR can learn about. (OMG how does an American know this? Nationality has nothing to do with knowledge)
There is no benevolence from BR - the players dont seek a permission from their government or fanatic jingoists like you before they move out and seek better opportunities in EU. Here EU provides them with the respect they deserve and BR just lets it happen cause they earn some money out of it. It is EU that provides these guys with the respect and facilities - nobody would care if all the BR folks just sit home and play in their own leagues. The world will not miss a thing. Again the only reason EU clubs reach out to them is because they are not xenophobic and wish to nurture, train and THEN use the talent available - worldwide. These are facts not opinions.
there is nothing new here, i already said multiple times it is not written in stone that every player will seek out for competitiveness over money.
Jingoism is the perfect word to describe to ur original post - it reeks of some sort of self-congratulatory message to urself and fellow BR for producing 5 players compared to 2 or 3 by Spain or Germany when u have 5x their population. You have absolutely no clue what you are yapping about and it is feeling like I am talking to an AI at this point. I am well aware of every word that I have used and definitely have a better understanding of those words than you.LMFAO You have absolutely no fucking idea. How can you be a Brazilian and not know that BR has always been traditionally protectionist state - it levies heavy taxes on goods produced elsewhere and constantly asks companies like the Automobile ones to setup their factories locally. One good example is how iphones cost 50% more in BR compared to US - yet you dont have a single company which can compete with Apple - an American company. I am sure everyone who is rich in BR just uses an iphone. BR actively participates in protectionist policies when it comes to trade but still fails to produce enough industries to rival international competition - unlike countries like China which actually has solid alternatives. You are forced to support a variety of FOREIGN services like Valve, Riot Games, Apple, Google, Microsoft and 100000s of other areas because you DONT have a LOCAL OPTION. A chinese guy can come upto u and say "oh u just use Google an American service because u dont have something like Baido - chinese app developed by CN?" - that question is not sincere - it is self congratulatory and reeks of arrogance and fails to understand that the world is dependent and supporting foreign stuff is inevitable. AGAIN - Having 5X the population of single EU states and only 5-6 more serious valorant players than them is not even something to be proud of.
I refuted several of your arguments with data and sources so that you can seek knowledge and leave ignorance behind. You only use fallacies that anyone without even the slightest knowledge of football could use. Your entire thinking is based on ideas and concepts rooted in mistaken beliefs. You saying that "there are other organizations that classify BR clubs as less competitive than those in the EU" is a desperate attempt on your part to find something that fits your narrative (which you accuse me of doing). The fact is: IFFHS is an entity recognized by FIFA that operates in world football by collecting data and presenting statistics since 1984, with headquarters in Germany. Yes, headquartered in Europe! (https://www.iffhs.com/aboutIffhs) You saying that "there are others" doesn't refute a single statistical number presented. Nor does it discredit the entire work of a serious company that has been operating in football for decades. Arguments like "Europe pays more," "Brazilians benefit," "no one would leave the EU to play in Brazil" are half-truths based on heuristics. Scarecrows that are very easy to refute: "Europe pays more" - Europe is a continent that encompasses various countries, some of which have no tradition in football and have very weak leagues, much worse (MUCH) than those in Brazil. Example: the leagues of Armenia, Belarus, Lithuania, Finland, Latvia, Kosovo, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. And in almost all of these weak and average leagues in Europe, no Brazilian would consider playing - low competitiveness, salaries that are not worth it, and little visibility. When you say "Europe pays more," you are referring to the most relevant and well-known leagues in the European continent, which do not encompass even 50% of all the others. The correct thing would be for you to state: On average, the European continent pays less and has low football competitiveness, but in the big and well-known leagues, which are an exception (such as the French, English and Spanish), you can have a higher salary. (https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2023) "Brazilians benefit" - Fallacy + half-truth. Both benefit in the same proportion. Without Brazilian players, European teams would not have a strong league. They NEED to import talent to ensure good audience ($$$$$), competitiveness, and visibility. Not to mention that names like Messi and Neymar, bring more profits to the club with shirt sales than expenses in salaries - as the president of PSG himself has stated. Brazilians can survive perfectly well without having to play in Europe, as they already do - earning millionaire salaries. There is a scientific study (which I know you will not read) explaining how Europe benefits from foreign players (most of them Brazilians) in its strongest leagues. (https://jhk.termedia.pl/pdf-158746-85005?filename=Evaluation%20of%20the%20Playing.pdf) "No one would leave the EU to play in Brazil" - It is a false syllogism. Obviously, you must know that this happens, and I don't even need to prove otherwise (or do I?). Flamengo's own team has former players from Arsenal, Barcelona, Wolfsburg, Chelsea... The premise that no one would leave a strong league that pays a lot to go to a strong league that pays less is partly true. But that cannot make you reach the conclusion that "no one would leave the EU to play in Brazil," especially since, as you have already learned, the European continent is mostly composed of countries with weak football leagues - which makes it completely viable for an Armenian, for example, without space in strong European clubs, to seek visibility in Brazil.
"Also funny how u even mention Flamengo is 18th as if that makes any sense - there are other things in that article that u could've picked up like "Flamengo spends 1 mil more than Aston Villa" "There are only 3 BR clubs in top 50" "BR has 5x population of every EU country but they dont have money to spend in the sport they are crazy about" - Aston Villa is one of the most successful clubs in the history of English football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Villa_F.C.). You saying that "Flamengo spends 1 million more than Aston Villa" could be an argument in my favor simply because Aston Villa is MUCH larger than the average of the 1,500 professional European clubs. Saying that "there are only 3 Brazilian clubs in the top 50" is another argument in my favor - it shows that we have at least 3 clubs above the European average - the Brazilian Serie A has 20 clubs. 3 clubs represent 15% of our league. Brazil does not have 5 times the population of all European countries. Another false statement, as usual. Germany, France, the UK, Turkey, and Italy are quite populous countries. What would it mean to have money to spend on football? I don't understand. We have good stadiums, we have hosted World Cups and Olympics, we are the biggest winners, and we have great players playing in the national championship. I think the money was well spent, you must have mixed feelings with rationality once again. Qatar, Russia, and Brazil were the countries that invested the most in World Cups, including (https://www.suno.com.br/noticias/copa-do-mundo-catar-2022-mais-cara-da-historia/#:~:text=Segundo%20dados%20da%20Front%20Office,US%24%2015%20bilh%C3%B5es%2C%20respectivamente.). The USA were the smallest investors, maybe that's what's missing for you. If you invested more in the MLS by looking to hire good players, and less in sports that nobody plays around the world, like the NFL, you would be more relevant in football. At the very least, you would stop being treated as a joke.
"Again the only reason EU clubs reach out to them is because they are not xenophobic and wish to nurture, train and THEN use the talent available - worldwide. These are facts not opinions." - Another unfounded statement based on beliefs that are not sustainable. It is definitively PROVEN through studies that the talent of foreigners in European clubs increases the performance of the league and that without them, the competitiveness would not be the same (https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29446/w29446.pdf). Not being xenophobic is not a quality at all, it is the duty of every human being capable of using their cognitive functions correctly. Individual talent is the only reason that drives a European scout to cross the Atlantic and seek some signings for the club they work for. It's not like they think, "I'm not xenophobic, now we can move on to part 2." Hahahahahaha. And as you have already learned: Individual talents generate audience and competitiveness, which generate money, which generate visibility and make the league self-sustainable.
"It reeks of some sort of self-congratulatory message to urself and fellow BR for producing 5 players compared to 2 or 3 by Spain or Germany when u have 5x their population." - Brazil does not have 5 times the population of Spain or Germany, it is another false claim (I have lost count of how many fake news you have said). And once again, you use "nationalism" (incorrectly), when you should mention "patriotism" (although there is also no clear correlation) to try to justify why Brazilians prefer to support a team composed mostly of Brazilians. You use some true premises to arrive at a false conclusion. Firstly, if Brazil were a continent and its states were countries, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro would have 12 million and 6 million inhabitants, respectively. Spain alone has 48 million inhabitants. Fact: Mibr, FURIA, and Loud mostly have players born in the "countries" Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo. Germany has 84 million inhabitants and cannot gather individual talents to compete with states with a total population of 18 million. I have nothing against it, as I have already said before. The problem is that EMEA fans are forced to treat EU as if it were a country due to the lack of national teams to support.
Astroman77 [#205]I refuted several of your arguments with data and sources so that you can seek knowledge and leave ignorance behind. You only use fallacies that anyone without even the slightest knowledge of football could use. Your entire thinking is based on ideas and concepts rooted in mistaken beliefs. You saying that "there are other organizations that classify BR clubs as less competitive than those in the EU" is a desperate attempt on your part to find something that fits your narrative (which you accuse me of doing). The fact is: IFFHS is an entity recognized by FIFA that operates in world football by collecting data and presenting statistics since 1984, with headquarters in Germany. Yes, headquartered in Europe! (https://www.iffhs.com/aboutIffhs) You saying that "there are others" doesn't refute a single statistical number presented. Nor does it discredit the entire work of a serious company that has been operating in football for decades. Arguments like "Europe pays more," "Brazilians benefit," "no one would leave the EU to play in Brazil" are half-truths based on heuristics. Scarecrows that are very easy to refute: "Europe pays more" - Europe is a continent that encompasses various countries, some of which have no tradition in football and have very weak leagues, much worse (MUCH) than those in Brazil. Example: the leagues of Armenia, Belarus, Lithuania, Finland, Latvia, Kosovo, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, etc. And in almost all of these weak and average leagues in Europe, no Brazilian would consider playing - low competitiveness, salaries that are not worth it, and little visibility. When you say "Europe pays more," you are referring to the most relevant and well-known leagues in the European continent, which do not encompass even 50% of all the others. The correct thing would be for you to state: On average, the European continent pays less and has low football competitiveness, but in the big and well-known leagues, which are an exception (such as the French, English and Spanish), you can have a higher salary. (https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2023) "Brazilians benefit" - Fallacy + half-truth. Both benefit in the same proportion. Without Brazilian players, European teams would not have a strong league. They NEED to import talent to ensure good audience ($$$$$), competitiveness, and visibility. Not to mention that names like Messi and Neymar, bring more profits to the club with shirt sales than expenses in salaries - as the president of PSG himself has stated. Brazilians can survive perfectly well without having to play in Europe, as they already do - earning millionaire salaries. There is a scientific study (which I know you will not read) explaining how Europe benefits from foreign players (most of them Brazilians) in its strongest leagues. (https://jhk.termedia.pl/pdf-158746-85005?filename=Evaluation%20of%20the%20Playing.pdf) "No one would leave the EU to play in Brazil" - It is a false syllogism. Obviously, you must know that this happens, and I don't even need to prove otherwise (or do I?). Flamengo's own team has former players from Arsenal, Barcelona, Wolfsburg, Chelsea... The premise that no one would leave a strong league that pays a lot to go to a strong league that pays less is partly true. But that cannot make you reach the conclusion that "no one would leave the EU to play in Brazil," especially since, as you have already learned, the European continent is mostly composed of countries with weak football leagues - which makes it completely viable for an Armenian, for example, without space in strong European clubs, to seek visibility in Brazil.
"Also funny how u even mention Flamengo is 18th as if that makes any sense - there are other things in that article that u could've picked up like "Flamengo spends 1 mil more than Aston Villa" "There are only 3 BR clubs in top 50" "BR has 5x population of every EU country but they dont have money to spend in the sport they are crazy about" - Aston Villa is one of the most successful clubs in the history of English football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Villa_F.C.). You saying that "Flamengo spends 1 million more than Aston Villa" could be an argument in my favor simply because Aston Villa is MUCH larger than the average of the 1,500 professional European clubs. Saying that "there are only 3 Brazilian clubs in the top 50" is another argument in my favor - it shows that we have at least 3 clubs above the European average - the Brazilian Serie A has 20 clubs. 3 clubs represent 15% of our league. Brazil does not have 5 times the population of all European countries. Another false statement, as usual. Germany, France, the UK, Turkey, and Italy are quite populous countries. What would it mean to have money to spend on football? I don't understand. We have good stadiums, we have hosted World Cups and Olympics, we are the biggest winners, and we have great players playing in the national championship. I think the money was well spent, you must have mixed feelings with rationality once again. Qatar, Russia, and Brazil were the countries that invested the most in World Cups, including (https://www.suno.com.br/noticias/copa-do-mundo-catar-2022-mais-cara-da-historia/#:~:text=Segundo%20dados%20da%20Front%20Office,US%24%2015%20bilh%C3%B5es%2C%20respectivamente.). The USA were the smallest investors, maybe that's what's missing for you. If you invested more in the MLS by looking to hire good players, and less in sports that nobody plays around the world, like the NFL, you would be more relevant in football. At the very least, you would stop being treated as a joke.
"Again the only reason EU clubs reach out to them is because they are not xenophobic and wish to nurture, train and THEN use the talent available - worldwide. These are facts not opinions." - Another unfounded statement based on beliefs that are not sustainable. It is definitively PROVEN through studies that the talent of foreigners in European clubs increases the performance of the league and that without them, the competitiveness would not be the same (https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w29446/w29446.pdf). Not being xenophobic is not a quality at all, it is the duty of every human being capable of using their cognitive functions correctly. Individual talent is the only reason that drives a European scout to cross the Atlantic and seek some signings for the club they work for. It's not like they think, "I'm not xenophobic, now we can move on to part 2." Hahahahahaha. And as you have already learned: Individual talents generate audience and competitiveness, which generate money, which generate visibility and make the league self-sustainable.
"It reeks of some sort of self-congratulatory message to urself and fellow BR for producing 5 players compared to 2 or 3 by Spain or Germany when u have 5x their population." - Brazil does not have 5 times the population of Spain or Germany, it is another false claim (I have lost count of how many fake news you have said). And once again, you use "nationalism" (incorrectly), when you should mention "patriotism" (although there is also no clear correlation) to try to justify why Brazilians prefer to support a team composed mostly of Brazilians. You use some true premises to arrive at a false conclusion. Firstly, if Brazil were a continent and its states were countries, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro would have 12 million and 6 million inhabitants, respectively. Spain alone has 48 million inhabitants. Fact: Mibr, FURIA, and Loud mostly have players born in the "countries" Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo. Germany has 84 million inhabitants and cannot gather individual talents to compete with states with a total population of 18 million. I have nothing against it, as I have already said before. The problem is that EMEA fans are forced to treat EU as if it were a country due to the lack of national teams to support.
There is no alternative. It is understandable to want to defend that it's okay to root for the continent when it's your only option.
Answering the last paragraph: I didn't say that Brazil wasn't protectionist, I think you have problems with comprehension. I said that it wasn't completely protectionist, as it happens in dictatorial and communist regimes, for example, where citizens are truly forced to use only domestic products due to lack of options, and the international industry has no space for growth and development. And that is enough to refute your previous, very poor argument - where you made an irrelevant and out of context comparison about being "forced" to buy products from other countries. No, there are alternatives. Levying taxes and duties is a protectionist measure, but that doesn't make Brazil a 100% protectionist country (I'm being redundant but I think it's necessary). It is a natural measure adopted by several countries to foster national commerce. Here, you wasted a lot of characters just to say something that I already know, you didn't add absolutely anything to the debate.
"You are forced to support a variety of FOREIGN services like Valve, Riot Games, Apple, Google, Microsoft and 100000s of other areas because you DONT have a LOCAL OPTION" - This made me smile, you use the word "support" - as if USING a foreign service is the same thing (or something similar) as truly supporting and rooting for it, trying to link, in a desperate attempt to win the argument, to the fact that European fans SUPPORT teams with foreign players. hahahahahaha. The initial premise is flawed, so the argument could not hold up.
"Having 5X the population of single EU states and only 5-6 more serious valorant players than them is not even something to be proud of" - You finish (oh, I'm surprised!) with a false statement. We don't have 5x the population of European countries. But since this is unfair to you, compare Germany (85 million inhabitants) with São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro (18 million) - most professional players come from these 2 metropolises.
firefirefirefire [#204]OURO THREAD, continua infernizando esses europeus aí que não conseguem formar se quer um time decente com mais de 3 da mesma nacionalidade.
Estou me divertindo, olha minhas últimas respostas. Isso pra mim é parque de diversões, gosto de ler e escrever... Kkkkkkkkkkkkkk
You’re speaking as if there is any intrinsic meaning to rooting for a team with the same nationality as yours, there isn’t
You only think that’s important because it’s the culture and dominant thought you were raised in, meanwhile Europeans are used to having people from all nationalities in their teams and that’s what’s normal to them, there’s no right or wrong here so stop applying the lens through which you see the world to judge other people’s behaviors
lorenzopajaroFC [#209]You’re speaking as if there is any intrinsic meaning to rooting for a team with the same nationality as yours, there isn’t
You only think that’s important because it’s the culture and dominant thought you were raised in, meanwhile Europeans are used to having people from all nationalities in their teams and that’s what’s normal to them, there’s no right or wrong here so stop applying the lens through which you see the world to judge other people’s behaviors
For the thousandth time: I have nothing against it. People can root for a continent. My issue is: they do it more because it's a forced movement, rather than a choice between rooting for an EMEA team full of foreigners or rooting for an EMEA team only with players from my country, for example - The lack of options reinforces the initial thought that makes them defend the idea of "diversity and unity." It's not wrong, for the thousand and first time.
FordTom [#211]Go say this to every American Tenz fan then and we'll talk after
Hahahahahaahahahahaha
Astroman77 [#207]There is no alternative. It is understandable to want to defend that it's okay to root for the continent when it's your only option.
Answering the last paragraph: I didn't say that Brazil wasn't protectionist, I think you have problems with comprehension. I said that it wasn't completely protectionist, as it happens in dictatorial and communist regimes, for example, where citizens are truly forced to use only domestic products due to lack of options, and the international industry has no space for growth and development. And that is enough to refute your previous, very poor argument - where you made an irrelevant and out of context comparison about being "forced" to buy products from other countries. No, there are alternatives. Levying taxes and duties is a protectionist measure, but that doesn't make Brazil a 100% protectionist country (I'm being redundant but I think it's necessary). It is a natural measure adopted by several countries to foster national commerce. Here, you wasted a lot of characters just to say something that I already know, you didn't add absolutely anything to the debate.
"You are forced to support a variety of FOREIGN services like Valve, Riot Games, Apple, Google, Microsoft and 100000s of other areas because you DONT have a LOCAL OPTION" - This made me smile, you use the word "support" - as if USING a foreign service is the same thing (or something similar) as truly supporting and rooting for it, trying to link, in a desperate attempt to win the argument, to the fact that European fans SUPPORT teams with foreign players. hahahahahaha. The initial premise is flawed, so the argument could not hold up.
"Having 5X the population of single EU states and only 5-6 more serious valorant players than them is not even something to be proud of" - You finish (oh, I'm surprised!) with a false statement. We don't have 5x the population of European countries. But since this is unfair to you, compare Germany (85 million inhabitants) with São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro (18 million) - most professional players come from these 2 metropolises.
cherry picking stats and sources, and then saying you have refuted my claims without actually ever refuting any of them is your whole argument. Just to take the example of IFFHS - it clearly says that Brazil won it for the first time in the history of IFFHS (since 1991) meanwhile EU dominated for all of the previous years.(https://www.iffhs.com/posts/1607). Now if you did your own research on the topic in an unbiased way you could see how you are cherry picking stuff to make an argument - but again fooling nobody but yourself.
It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that I have been referring to wealthier western European leagues and not Eastern European countries that hardly qualify for the WC but u write a whole paragraph correcting it like a nerd without making a single point.
Messi and Neymar who came straight outta South America didnt sell any shirts lol.. only after they were provided with the training, nutrition and medical help at centres like La Masia - made them who they are today.
My comment on Aston Villa was in response to how you said big clubs like Real Madrid are an outlier to rest of the Europe -- Aston Villa stands nowhere near RM in terms of wages or trophies won but they spend as much as Flamengo says everything.
What is there not to understand - 3 BR clubs in top 50 - that was the article I was referring to say BR spends nothing in comparison to other big EU leagues. They profit off the selling of their players but hardly invest anything to develop their own leagues. I gave example of how India does it in cricket (another underdeveloped/developing country to make the comparison a little fairer). I aint clicking and reading your link to the World Cup stats because I can 10000% tell u that is cherry picked. Well obviously football is not famous in USA, most people here dont care for the sport or the MLS - it is personal preference and if anything is a joke it is the fact that football is almost a religion in Brazil and yet they lose 7-1 in their home to a country with not even half their population.
Not being xenophobic is definitely a quality - you saying my arguments are unfounded doesnt make them so but only shows your ignorance about the subject. You would understand that sport has historically seen racism and xenophobia - the ability of society to shun their outdated views and look for talent across the globe has never been a necessity, rather an appreciable improvement. For example there was a period when Black people were not allowed to play and even today in some places they have to face racism - do you think the perpetrators of racism feel like "oh we need talent from Black people so we shouldnt be racist" - no they are fine without them but the fact that these societies are slowly moving away from such beliefs and accepting people from diverse background is appreciable. You think oh my BR brothers are so talented that they cannot be ignored - that is not true --- i could make the argument for this paragraph by pasting links and sources but at this point i know i am talking to someone who is just hell bent on proving a false narrative and wont learn that he is wrong. I already know ur supposed refutal is going to be about how this not a fact or its my personal opinion but it aint - i am just too lazy to google shit.
BR population - 200 million population and most of the populated european countries fall around 50-80M - none of them even half of yours yet they dominate in every sport/esport you play is just crazy. The ratio of quality players coming out of these based on their population is definitely praise-worthy and refutes your entire claim of them not being able to produce better talent. You comparing cities with whole countries shows another failed attempt to cherry pick and create false narrative. In every country, the cities are the most populated and present more opportunities of growth so yeah if the rest of BR except 2 cities is extremely backward then thats your problem and exposes another shortcoming of Brazil.
By using a product, you are supporting its business. I clearly gave you example of how countries like China refuse to do this which is why they are developing at a faster pace going toe to toe with US. My point is simple - you wont have local talent or local companies to support through your hard earned money or over the top cheering in every department. If you like basketball and dont have a lebron james, you will cheer for him. if you dont have a local alternative to Apple, you will buy their products. Its ok to do so but asking them with the tone " OH U DONT HAVE THIS? SO U SUPPORT A WHOLE CONTINENT, DIFFERENT COUNTRY? HAHA THATS A SHAME" is just ur stupid attempt to act like a clown and it is apparent from this thread how u got exposed for it. yea yea yea i knew u would back out of the protectionist state claim and fill some nonsense to make it seem like u replied about it.. ive seen it all - pls never debate or argue in real life cause the loss of face wont be worth it.
kskm [#213]cherry picking stats and sources, and then saying you have refuted my claims without actually ever refuting any of them is your whole argument. Just to take the example of IFFHS - it clearly says that Brazil won it for the first time in the history of IFFHS (since 1991) meanwhile EU dominated for all of the previous years.(https://www.iffhs.com/posts/1607). Now if you did your own research on the topic in an unbiased way you could see how you are cherry picking stuff to make an argument - but again fooling nobody but yourself.
It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that I have been referring to wealthier western European leagues and not Eastern European countries that hardly qualify for the WC but u write a whole paragraph correcting it like a nerd without making a single point.
Messi and Neymar who came straight outta South America didnt sell any shirts lol.. only after they were provided with the training, nutrition and medical help at centres like La Masia - made them who they are today.My comment on Aston Villa was in response to how you said big clubs like Real Madrid are an outlier to rest of the Europe -- Aston Villa stands nowhere near RM in terms of wages or trophies won but they spend as much as Flamengo says everything.
What is there not to understand - 3 BR clubs in top 50 - that was the article I was referring to say BR spends nothing in comparison to other big EU leagues. They profit off the selling of their players but hardly invest anything to develop their own leagues. I gave example of how India does it in cricket (another underdeveloped/developing country to make the comparison a little fairer). I aint clicking and reading your link to the World Cup stats because I can 10000% tell u that is cherry picked. Well obviously football is not famous in USA, most people here dont care for the sport or the MLS - it is personal preference and if anything is a joke it is the fact that football is almost a religion in Brazil and yet they lose 7-1 in their home to a country with not even half their population.
Not being xenophobic is definitely a quality - you saying my arguments are unfounded doesnt make them so but only shows your ignorance about the subject. You would understand that sport has historically seen racism and xenophobia - the ability of society to shun their outdated views and look for talent across the globe has never been a necessity, rather an appreciable improvement. For example there was a period when Black people were not allowed to play and even today in some places they have to face racism - do you think the perpetrators of racism feel like "oh we need talent from Black people so we shouldnt be racist" - no they are fine without them but the fact that these societies are slowly moving away from such beliefs and accepting people from diverse background is appreciable. You think oh my BR brothers are so talented that they cannot be ignored - that is not true --- i could make the argument for this paragraph by pasting links and sources but at this point i know i am talking to someone who is just hell bent on proving a false narrative and wont learn that he is wrong. I already know ur supposed refutal is going to be about how this not a fact or its my personal opinion but it aint - i am just too lazy to google shit.
BR population - 200 million population and most of the populated european countries fall around 50-80M - none of them even half of yours yet they dominate in every sport/esport you play is just crazy. The ratio of quality players coming out of these based on their population is definitely praise-worthy and refutes your entire claim of them not being able to produce better talent. You comparing cities with whole countries shows another failed attempt to cherry pick and create false narrative. In every country, the cities are the most populated and present more opportunities of growth so yeah if the rest of BR except 2 cities is extremely backward then thats your problem and exposes another shortcoming of Brazil.
By using a product, you are supporting its business. I clearly gave you example of how countries like China refuse to do this which is why they are developing at a faster pace going toe to toe with US. My point is simple - you wont have local talent or local companies to support through your hard earned money or over the top cheering in every department. If you like basketball and dont have a lebron james, you will cheer for him. if you dont have a local alternative to Apple, you will buy their products. Its ok to do so but asking them with the tone " OH U DONT HAVE THIS? SO U SUPPORT A WHOLE CONTINENT, DIFFERENT COUNTRY? HAHA THATS A SHAME" is just ur stupid attempt to act like a clown and it is apparent from this thread how u got exposed for it. yea yea yea i knew u would back out of the protectionist state claim and fill some nonsense to make it seem like u replied about it.. ive seen it all - pls never debate or argue in real life cause the loss of face wont be worth it.
I LITERALLY refuted almost 99% of your misguided claims and your defense is: you didn't refute me! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. And once again you lose the argument because the first time Brazil won as the strongest league in the world was in 2021. THE DATA FROM THE LINK YOU SENT IS FROM..... 2021! (oh my god!) It's outdated. We're in 2023. For the second consecutive year, we are considered the strongest league in the world. Here's the current (https://www.iffhs.com/posts/2483). (No, I didn't refute you again).
"It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that I have been referring to wealthier western European leagues and not Eastern European countries that hardly qualify for the WC" - When you mention EUROPE, you automatically refer to ALL European countries. Without exception. You can't just select the good leagues and forget that there are horrible leagues just to reinforce some kind of argument. "Oh, but I didn't mean to refer to the bad leagues." Then don't use "Europe" as an example. You accuse me of doing what you yourself do - selecting what favors you. (No, I didn't refute you again).
"My comment on Aston Villa was in response to how you said big clubs like Real Madrid are an outlier to rest of the Europe -- Aston Villa stands nowhere near RM in terms of wages or trophies won but they spend as much as Flamengo says everything." - As I have mentioned before, Real Madrid is a giant club even by European club standards and averages. No other club is as big as Real Madrid, not even any other European giant. But still, Aston Villa is bigger than the average European club. That's the point. Flamengo earning just a little more than a Premier League club like Aston Villa really says it all. (Again, I didn't refute you.)
"What is there not to understand - 3 BR clubs in top 50 - that was the article I was referring to say BR spends nothing in comparison to other big EU leagues. They profit off the selling of their players but hardly invest anything to develop their own leagues." - Brazil doesn't spend anything compared to the big European leagues - correct. Brazil spends more than the average of all European leagues, including the bad ones - correct. The big European leagues don't represent the TRUE overall quality of football played in Europe. What we see on TV is just the good part of a few European countries, which don't even add up to 60% of all of Europe. The Brazilian league is currently the most competitive in the world, there is heavy investment, and that's why we're the country that exports the most football players, with a LARGE advantage over the others. The league is developed enough for a foreign scout to sign a Brazilian player and have no doubts about their quality. (I did not refute you again.)
"Well obviously football is not famous in USA, most people here dont care for the sport or the MLS - it is personal preference and if anything is a joke it is the fact that football is almost a religion in Brazil and yet they lose 7-1 in their home to a country with not even half their population." - It was indeed a shame for Brazil to lose 7-1, but currently, no one cares much about it. Especially because we are the best in the sport that is the most played in the world. If I had to choose between a) having the best team/selection in a sport that is only played in my country, with no global appeal and visibility compared to other sports, and b) having the best team/selection in the most watched and played sport in the world, even if it means suffering some embarrassment - I would obviously go with the second option. If population meant anything, China and India would dominate every sport they played, your argument of "the bigger the population, the higher the chances of the country succeeding in something" is ridiculous, and I can cite thousands of examples to refute this nonsense. You yourself know it's a weak argument.
"Not being xenophobic is definitely a quality" - No, it's not a quality. It's a law. Being prejudiced can get you in jail. Just like not being a murderer is not a quality. Not committing adultery is not a quality. Not stealing is not a quality. Acting like a minimally normal person is not a quality, it's something expected from everyone. You don't go around laughing at people with disabilities - without legs, without hearing, without sight - and not being prejudiced against these people is DEFINITELY not a quality. You're not going to applaud or praise someone who wasn't racist, because that's what's expected. It's not a quality. Your concepts about certain things are visibly wrong. (Another one for the list of 'you didn't refute me')
"You think oh my BR brothers are so talented that they cannot be ignored - that is not true" - Yes, it's true. And I sent a scientific study in the previous post that precisely proves this: the search of European clubs for foreign talents with the aim of surpassing their European rivals - since using only national players means not being competitive enough to aim for big titles. It's IMPOSSIBLE for a Brazilian talent not to be sought after by the biggest clubs in the world. You give opinions based on personal beliefs and completely evade reality. The funny thing is that most of these statements apply to the USA, where a possible American individual talent could be rejected because it is a country with a completely weak competitive league, questioning the true quality of the athlete in question.
"BR population - 200 million population and most of the populated european countries fall around 50-80M - none of them even half of yours yet they dominate in every sport/esport you play is just crazy." - Here you use the population parameter again, but you forget that Europe dominates e-sports using players from all European countries, without any exception regarding this. That is, you should take the population of Europe as an example, which is 746 million people. Very surprising that dozens of countries can surpass Brazil, right? If you want to compare countries with 50 or 80 million inhabitants, mention the COUNTRY in question and not the CONTINENT. Germany, France, Spain, Italy, and Turkey, for example, are countries that fit the example, but none of them individually can surpass Brazil in sports or e-sports. They can't even put together a team with only players from their own country.
"You comparing cities with whole countries shows another failed attempt to cherry pick and create false narrative."
- No, it's just an example of how it's possible to build competitive teams without having to resort to an entire region of almost 800 million inhabitants. Just as Brazil doesn't resort to its 200 million inhabitants - it's a comparison that apparently you were unable to understand. Kru and Leviatan are examples of how population doesn't influence the issue - having national teams to root for in a certain region/continent. Chile has 20 million inhabitants, which is smaller than the population of several European countries. And yet they managed to gather 2 good teams in LATAM, without resorting to the 450 million inhabitants of SA.
"My point is simple - you wont have local talent or local companies to support through your hard earned money or over the top cheering in every department." - No one buys products from a particular company with the intention of supporting it. Such thinking is that of a shareholder or investor, which has nothing to do with the subject. We buy out of necessity or to satisfy a desire. Absolutely no ordinary person spends their hard-earned money thinking about buying an item to "support the company." In a buyer/seller relationship, both benefit, both the entrepreneur (monetarily) and the consumer (acquiring a product/service). Your attempt to link this to SUPPORTING a team is so out of touch with reality that I don't even need to explain why.
Astroman77 [#214]I LITERALLY refuted almost 99% of your misguided claims and your defense is: you didn't refute me! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. And once again you lose the argument because the first time Brazil won as the strongest league in the world was in 2021. THE DATA FROM THE LINK YOU SENT IS FROM..... 2021! (oh my god!) It's outdated. We're in 2023. For the second consecutive year, we are considered the strongest league in the world. Here's the current (https://www.iffhs.com/posts/2483). (No, I didn't refute you again).
"It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that I have been referring to wealthier western European leagues and not Eastern European countries that hardly qualify for the WC" - When you mention EUROPE, you automatically refer to ALL European countries. Without exception. You can't just select the good leagues and forget that there are horrible leagues just to reinforce some kind of argument. "Oh, but I didn't mean to refer to the bad leagues." Then don't use "Europe" as an example. You accuse me of doing what you yourself do - selecting what favors you. (No, I didn't refute you again).
"My comment on Aston Villa was in response to how you said big clubs like Real Madrid are an outlier to rest of the Europe -- Aston Villa stands nowhere near RM in terms of wages or trophies won but they spend as much as Flamengo says everything." - As I have mentioned before, Real Madrid is a giant club even by European club standards and averages. No other club is as big as Real Madrid, not even any other European giant. But still, Aston Villa is bigger than the average European club. That's the point. Flamengo earning just a little more than a Premier League club like Aston Villa really says it all. (Again, I didn't refute you.)
"What is there not to understand - 3 BR clubs in top 50 - that was the article I was referring to say BR spends nothing in comparison to other big EU leagues. They profit off the selling of their players but hardly invest anything to develop their own leagues." - Brazil doesn't spend anything compared to the big European leagues - correct. Brazil spends more than the average of all European leagues, including the bad ones - correct. The big European leagues don't represent the TRUE overall quality of football played in Europe. What we see on TV is just the good part of a few European countries, which don't even add up to 60% of all of Europe. The Brazilian league is currently the most competitive in the world, there is heavy investment, and that's why we're the country that exports the most football players, with a LARGE advantage over the others. The league is developed enough for a foreign scout to sign a Brazilian player and have no doubts about their quality. (I did not refute you again.)
"Well obviously football is not famous in USA, most people here dont care for the sport or the MLS - it is personal preference and if anything is a joke it is the fact that football is almost a religion in Brazil and yet they lose 7-1 in their home to a country with not even half their population." - It was indeed a shame for Brazil to lose 7-1, but currently, no one cares much about it. Especially because we are the best in the sport that is the most played in the world. If I had to choose between a) having the best team/selection in a sport that is only played in my country, with no global appeal and visibility compared to other sports, and b) having the best team/selection in the most watched and played sport in the world, even if it means suffering some embarrassment - I would obviously go with the second option. If population meant anything, China and India would dominate every sport they played, your argument of "the bigger the population, the higher the chances of the country succeeding in something" is ridiculous, and I can cite thousands of examples to refute this nonsense. You yourself know it's a weak argument.
"Not being xenophobic is definitely a quality" - No, it's not a quality. It's a law. Being prejudiced can get you in jail. Just like not being a murderer is not a quality. Not committing adultery is not a quality. Not stealing is not a quality. Acting like a minimally normal person is not a quality, it's something expected from everyone. You don't go around laughing at people with disabilities - without legs, without hearing, without sight - and not being prejudiced against these people is DEFINITELY not a quality. You're not going to applaud or praise someone who wasn't racist, because that's what's expected. It's not a quality. Your concepts about certain things are visibly wrong. (Another one for the list of 'you didn't refute me')
"You think oh my BR brothers are so talented that they cannot be ignored - that is not true" - Yes, it's true. And I sent a scientific study in the previous post that precisely proves this: the search of European clubs for foreign talents with the aim of surpassing their European rivals - since using only national players means not being competitive enough to aim for big titles. It's IMPOSSIBLE for a Brazilian talent not to be sought after by the biggest clubs in the world. You give opinions based on personal beliefs and completely evade reality. The funny thing is that most of these statements apply to the USA, where a possible American individual talent could be rejected because it is a country with a completely weak competitive league, questioning the true quality of the athlete in question.
"BR population - 200 million population and most of the populated european countries fall around 50-80M - none of them even half of yours yet they dominate in every sport/esport you play is just crazy." - Here you use the population parameter again, but you forget that Europe dominates e-sports using players from all European countries, without any exception regarding this. That is, you should take the population of Europe as an example, which is 746 million people. Very surprising that dozens of countries can surpass Brazil, right? If you want to compare countries with 50 or 80 million inhabitants, mention the COUNTRY in question and not the CONTINENT. Germany, France, Spain, Italy, and Turkey, for example, are countries that fit the example, but none of them individually can surpass Brazil in sports or e-sports. They can't even put together a team with only players from their own country.
"You comparing cities with whole countries shows another failed attempt to cherry pick and create false narrative."
- No, it's just an example of how it's possible to build competitive teams without having to resort to an entire region of almost 800 million inhabitants. Just as Brazil doesn't resort to its 200 million inhabitants - it's a comparison that apparently you were unable to understand. Kru and Leviatan are examples of how population doesn't influence the issue - having national teams to root for in a certain region/continent. Chile has 20 million inhabitants, which is smaller than the population of several European countries. And yet they managed to gather 2 good teams in LATAM, without resorting to the 450 million inhabitants of SA.
"My point is simple - you wont have local talent or local companies to support through your hard earned money or over the top cheering in every department." - No one buys products from a particular company with the intention of supporting it. Such thinking is that of a shareholder or investor, which has nothing to do with the subject. We buy out of necessity or to satisfy a desire. Absolutely no ordinary person spends their hard-earned money thinking about buying an item to "support the company." In a buyer/seller relationship, both benefit, both the entrepreneur (monetarily) and the consumer (acquiring a product/service). Your attempt to link this to SUPPORTING a team is so out of touch with reality that I don't even need to explain why.
wrong - i simply gave u an article to show u how they won it for the first time in 2021 and EU clubs have dominated over the years - this proves most EU clubs are stronger than BR + the fact that u havent researched how the ranking is done nor if it is an official authority on the subject or if there are other respectable orgs which have not ranked BR as the strongest - you pasted one link which seemed to support ur false narrative and went with it expecting not to be caught.
wrong - ur just braindead to assume i would be referring to countries like vatican city when i say EU, u were comparing BR teams to countries like Germany, Spain in previous posts and suddenly changed goalposts to include countries that dont give a fuck about football including USA to somehow score a goal - pathetic attempt to salvage debate points when the entire vlr thinks ur takes on this thread are aweful at best.
wrong - aston villa is the average EU club - again i aint talking about clubs representing vatican city. Flamengo 18th and 3 in top 50 is not even a good look so this refutes nothing but only proves my point.
wrong - u need education, have u graduated high school yet? read my post again and take some lessons in world history. there were times when being a racist was accepted, there were no laws against slave trade for an example and there were no anti-discriminatory laws preventing people from being racist/sexist etc and there are still countries where such laws dont exist.
wrong - ur point misses my entire argument, it does not matter how good Brazillians are at the game, if Europeans were racist/xenophobic they wouldnt care to include or let these guys in their country. They wouldnt care if it increases their competitiveness, there are several examples to prove this all over the world how people have not let diverse people to participate even when they know it adds to their competitiveness. Laws preventing discrimination didnt popout from the sky, they had to be fought for and it is always appreciable if someone is not racist/xenophobic because there were people who were not racist even when it wasnt a law. Big EU clubs letting Brazilians play in their league is sign of no xenophobia - which is appreciable irrespective of whether it is a law or not
wrong - Population is a pretty good metric simply cause more people means one has more choice to pick people from to make a team. Obviously countries like Vatican city cannot be compared with BR or expected to have any impact. So Germany for an example doing so good in Football with half the population of BR just shows the amount of work their people have put in to improve the culture surrounding the game. China and India play different sports - China has been very good in Olympics lately and India has been very good at Cricket - they also export alot of talent in various other fields like Technology which makes sense because they have alot of people. Also doesnt the current LOUD squad have saadhak and frod - two foreigners? are u currently forced to support Saadhak with ur flair? or even the American/Cuban FROD? that must be really sad.
wrong - u again miss the entire argument and feel like u have refuted something. when it comes to clubs it is normal to have people from various nationalities/different languages etc.. its not a national team, its not a World Cup. Germany or Spain in Valorant does not need to find 5 players to make a squad, if there was a world cup in Valorant, maybe they would create a roster with 5 and maybe they could 13-1 ur all BR squad too just like how u got 7-1'd. In the future maybe even LOUD might import players from the Americas region, just like they did with frod - go ask them why did they do that and if there are no other good coaches available in BR? Supporting foreign products hurts the local alternatives when it comes to trade - cheering for foreign players does not affect the local players who are not playing in the tournament.
kskm [#215]wrong - i simply gave u an article to show u how they won it for the first time in 2021 and EU clubs have dominated over the years - this proves most EU clubs are stronger than BR + the fact that u havent researched how the ranking is done nor if it is an official authority on the subject or if there are other respectable orgs which have not ranked BR as the strongest - you pasted one link which seemed to support ur false narrative and went with it expecting not to be caught.
wrong - ur just braindead to assume i would be referring to countries like vatican city when i say EU, u were comparing BR teams to countries like Germany, Spain in previous posts and suddenly changed goalposts to include countries that dont give a fuck about football including USA to somehow score a goal - pathetic attempt to salvage debate points when the entire vlr thinks ur takes on this thread are aweful at best.
wrong - aston villa is the average EU club - again i aint talking about clubs representing vatican city. Flamengo 18th and 3 in top 50 is not even a good look so this refutes nothing but only proves my point.wrong - u need education, have u graduated high school yet? read my post again and take some lessons in world history. there were times when being a racist was accepted, there were no laws against slave trade for an example and there were no anti-discriminatory laws preventing people from being racist/sexist etc and there are still countries where such laws dont exist.
wrong - ur point misses my entire argument, it does not matter how good Brazillians are at the game, if Europeans were racist/xenophobic they wouldnt care to include or let these guys in their country. They wouldnt care if it increases their competitiveness, there are several examples to prove this all over the world how people have not let diverse people to participate even when they know it adds to their competitiveness. Laws preventing discrimination didnt popout from the sky, they had to be fought for and it is always appreciable if someone is not racist/xenophobic because there were people who were not racist even when it wasnt a law. Big EU clubs letting Brazilians play in their league is sign of no xenophobia - which is appreciable irrespective of whether it is a law or not
wrong - Population is a pretty good metric simply cause more people means one has more choice to pick people from to make a team. Obviously countries like Vatican city cannot be compared with BR or expected to have any impact. So Germany for an example doing so good in Football with half the population of BR just shows the amount of work their people have put in to improve the culture surrounding the game. China and India play different sports - China has been very good in Olympics lately and India has been very good at Cricket - they also export alot of talent in various other fields like Technology which makes sense because they have alot of people. Also doesnt the current LOUD squad have saadhak and frod - two foreigners? are u currently forced to support Saadhak with ur flair? or even the American/Cuban FROD? that must be really sad.
wrong - u again miss the entire argument and feel like u have refuted something. when it comes to clubs it is normal to have people from various nationalities/different languages etc.. its not a national team, its not a World Cup. Germany or Spain in Valorant does not need to find 5 players to make a squad, if there was a world cup in Valorant, maybe they would create a roster with 5 and maybe they could 13-1 ur all BR squad too just like how u got 7-1'd. In the future maybe even LOUD might import players from the Americas region, just like they did with frod - go ask them why did they do that and if there are no other good coaches available in BR? Supporting foreign products hurts the local alternatives when it comes to trade - cheering for foreign players does not affect the local players who are not playing in the tournament.
Not wrong - I was the one who sent the website with statistical data, you just reused what I had already sent. And you tried to belittle it by saying "there are others that say the opposite", without even mentioning which other research institutes those are. IFFHS is the only one I know of that has recognition and approval from FIFA. The burden of proof is on the accuser. You used a lie, "it clearly says that Brazil won it for the first time in the history of IFFHS", to try to counter-argue, without even looking at the publication date to which the research was linked (a very amateur mistake). EU dominance for years does not change the fact that we currently have the strongest league in the world - THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS in the context. My argument in linking the website was simply to prove that. That we have the strongest league in the world. FACT. "Oh, and what about the other years?" - Read the first post again where I sent this link, it was used only to support a CURRENT fact. It's not a false narrative. It's conclusive proof that we currently have the strongest league in the world.
Not wrong - When anyone refers to Europe, it encompasses ALL European countries. It doesn't matter if I referred to Germany, France, Spain or any other country individually - which I don't remember doing. It doesn't change the fact that even the Vatican is part of the continent. And when we mention European leagues, we talk more about bad leagues than good ones. When you say EU, are you including the Vatican, or is it not part of Europe? There is no context in which it is not part of Europe. NONE. The USA was mentioned as a benchmark only twice - to show how pathetic the investment in football is compared to Brazil, and another to show that investing in sports that the vast majority of the world doesn't practice isn't very smart. An example not to be followed. People's opinions are just opinions, they are not absolute truths, it doesn't change anything at all.
Not wrong - Aston Villa is an ABOVE AVERAGE club in the European leagues. Do you even know how many European clubs there are? Research it. With a basic and quick calculation - with only 5 countries with weak leagues, we have at least 100 first division teams. None of them come close to that top 50. Now multiply that - there are at least THIRTY countries with weak European leagues. 30x20 = 600. Of these 600 first division clubs, none of them are in the top 50. 20 is the number of teams that make up the first division of any league, I imagine you know that. If we take the strongest leagues, which are: English, German, French, Spanish, and Italian -> 5x20 = 100. Of the top 50, only 3 clubs are not from the 5 strongest leagues in Europe. So, definitely Aston Villa and Flamengo, for example, are well above the European average. Not to mention that the Brazilian championship is the 6th most valuable in the world, second only to those 5 leagues mentioned above. (https://www.lance.com.br/lancebiz/as-20-ligas-nacionais-mais-valiosas-do-mundo-veja-levantamento-exclusivo-do-l.html)
Not wrong - In the past, cannibalism was also normal and acceptable among various indigenous peoples, marriage was arranged through families, and harassment was normalized. It was normal for women to not have the right to vote and many other things that nowadays are unimaginable. However, this does not change the fact that humans and society evolve and have evolved over time. Following evolution itself is not something that deserves praise and it is not even a quality, as it is a natural and continuous process of our history. The pursuit of progress and development is something that has driven us throughout the centuries. Therefore, not being prejudiced is something that is expected of a normal human being born in the 21st century.
Not wrong - If Europeans are racist and xenophobic, they will be punished for it, as these practices are not acceptable in a modern and developed society. It's like suggesting that if the US were anti-Semitic, they wouldn't support Israel. Or if Brazil were xenophobic, Frod wouldn't be on Loud's team. This is the minimum expected of any normal person - to not have prejudices and accept diversity. It's not an attitude to be praised and applauded. "Oh, you're so benevolent, thank you for accepting Saadhak and FroD, what an incredible virtue." This makes no sense in today's world. Having laws to prevent such practices is just a desire of society in agreement with the state. Stealing is punishable, not stealing is not something that deserves praise - it's expected. The rest of the premises are false because they are based on the false assertion that "not being prejudiced is commendable."
Not wrong - Success in sports is determined by a series of factors, and none of these factors include population size. Although a large population may increase the probability of having sporting talent, it is by no means a guarantee of success. India is a country with a population of 1.4 billion people and yet has fewer Olympic medals than many much less populous countries. This argument is completely unsustainable. You know that. You can even cite Brazil as an example - 220 million inhabitants and losing to several European countries in various sports. Having 2 foreigners doesn't make me not support the team. That's not even the point, which shows your inability to interpret and understand. I've already explained that.
Not wrong - Here you are arguing against a phantom. I didn't say it wasn't normal to have players from different nationalities on a team. I refuted your mistaken argument of wanting to compare a region of 750 million people with Brazil and saying, "look, there are countries with 50 and 80 million people, and Brazil with 200 million can't even compete, that's crazy." You're confusing the whole (Europe) with its parts (countries). It's not that Germany and Spain "don't need to find players to form a Valorant team," it's simply that there aren't 5 good enough German/Spanish talents to form a competitive team. Unlike in CS:GO, where there are BIG (German) and Movistar Riders (Spanish). The fact that EMEA teams are mostly made up of people from various countries isn't a choice like, "hmm, I want a diverse team without repeating nationalities," it's simply a natural process of gathering the best players in the European market, resulting in the teams we know. Perhaps in the future, there will be 5 good enough British players to form a competitive Valorant team and they'll beat an American team 13-0. Nowadays, there aren't. Here again you talk about "supporting" foreign products, as if anyone thinks about that when making a purchase (oh my god!), or worse, as if there's any correlation with rooting for players. This is one of the most stupid comparisons I've ever seen.
Astroman77 [#216]Not wrong - I was the one who sent the website with statistical data, you just reused what I had already sent. And you tried to belittle it by saying "there are others that say the opposite", without even mentioning which other research institutes those are. IFFHS is the only one I know of that has recognition and approval from FIFA. The burden of proof is on the accuser. You used a lie, "it clearly says that Brazil won it for the first time in the history of IFFHS", to try to counter-argue, without even looking at the publication date to which the research was linked (a very amateur mistake). EU dominance for years does not change the fact that we currently have the strongest league in the world - THAT'S ALL THAT MATTERS in the context. My argument in linking the website was simply to prove that. That we have the strongest league in the world. FACT. "Oh, and what about the other years?" - Read the first post again where I sent this link, it was used only to support a CURRENT fact. It's not a false narrative. It's conclusive proof that we currently have the strongest league in the world.
Not wrong - When anyone refers to Europe, it encompasses ALL European countries. It doesn't matter if I referred to Germany, France, Spain or any other country individually - which I don't remember doing. It doesn't change the fact that even the Vatican is part of the continent. And when we mention European leagues, we talk more about bad leagues than good ones. When you say EU, are you including the Vatican, or is it not part of Europe? There is no context in which it is not part of Europe. NONE. The USA was mentioned as a benchmark only twice - to show how pathetic the investment in football is compared to Brazil, and another to show that investing in sports that the vast majority of the world doesn't practice isn't very smart. An example not to be followed. People's opinions are just opinions, they are not absolute truths, it doesn't change anything at all.
Not wrong - Aston Villa is an ABOVE AVERAGE club in the European leagues. Do you even know how many European clubs there are? Research it. With a basic and quick calculation - with only 5 countries with weak leagues, we have at least 100 first division teams. None of them come close to that top 50. Now multiply that - there are at least THIRTY countries with weak European leagues. 30x20 = 600. Of these 600 first division clubs, none of them are in the top 50. 20 is the number of teams that make up the first division of any league, I imagine you know that. If we take the strongest leagues, which are: English, German, French, Spanish, and Italian -> 5x20 = 100. Of the top 50, only 3 clubs are not from the 5 strongest leagues in Europe. So, definitely Aston Villa and Flamengo, for example, are well above the European average. Not to mention that the Brazilian championship is the 6th most valuable in the world, second only to those 5 leagues mentioned above. (https://www.lance.com.br/lancebiz/as-20-ligas-nacionais-mais-valiosas-do-mundo-veja-levantamento-exclusivo-do-l.html)
Not wrong - In the past, cannibalism was also normal and acceptable among various indigenous peoples, marriage was arranged through families, and harassment was normalized. It was normal for women to not have the right to vote and many other things that nowadays are unimaginable. However, this does not change the fact that humans and society evolve and have evolved over time. Following evolution itself is not something that deserves praise and it is not even a quality, as it is a natural and continuous process of our history. The pursuit of progress and development is something that has driven us throughout the centuries. Therefore, not being prejudiced is something that is expected of a normal human being born in the 21st century.
Not wrong - If Europeans are racist and xenophobic, they will be punished for it, as these practices are not acceptable in a modern and developed society. It's like suggesting that if the US were anti-Semitic, they wouldn't support Israel. Or if Brazil were xenophobic, Frod wouldn't be on Loud's team. This is the minimum expected of any normal person - to not have prejudices and accept diversity. It's not an attitude to be praised and applauded. "Oh, you're so benevolent, thank you for accepting Saadhak and FroD, what an incredible virtue." This makes no sense in today's world. Having laws to prevent such practices is just a desire of society in agreement with the state. Stealing is punishable, not stealing is not something that deserves praise - it's expected. The rest of the premises are false because they are based on the false assertion that "not being prejudiced is commendable."
Not wrong - Success in sports is determined by a series of factors, and none of these factors include population size. Although a large population may increase the probability of having sporting talent, it is by no means a guarantee of success. India is a country with a population of 1.4 billion people and yet has fewer Olympic medals than many much less populous countries. This argument is completely unsustainable. You know that. You can even cite Brazil as an example - 220 million inhabitants and losing to several European countries in various sports. Having 2 foreigners doesn't make me not support the team. That's not even the point, which shows your inability to interpret and understand. I've already explained that.
Not wrong - Here you are arguing against a phantom. I didn't say it wasn't normal to have players from different nationalities on a team. I refuted your mistaken argument of wanting to compare a region of 750 million people with Brazil and saying, "look, there are countries with 50 and 80 million people, and Brazil with 200 million can't even compete, that's crazy." You're confusing the whole (Europe) with its parts (countries). It's not that Germany and Spain "don't need to find players to form a Valorant team," it's simply that there aren't 5 good enough German/Spanish talents to form a competitive team. Unlike in CS:GO, where there are BIG (German) and Movistar Riders (Spanish). The fact that EMEA teams are mostly made up of people from various countries isn't a choice like, "hmm, I want a diverse team without repeating nationalities," it's simply a natural process of gathering the best players in the European market, resulting in the teams we know. Perhaps in the future, there will be 5 good enough British players to form a competitive Valorant team and they'll beat an American team 13-0. Nowadays, there aren't. Here again you talk about "supporting" foreign products, as if anyone thinks about that when making a purchase (oh my god!), or worse, as if there's any correlation with rooting for players. This is one of the most stupid comparisons I've ever seen.
first 3 - wrong - ur just shifting goalposts to include weaker EU countries to somehow score a debate point when u compared BR with stronger EU countries in the thread and realized its a losing battle and changed how the definition of EU is supposed to be used. In your OP itself which u title "EMEA come" u accuse the entire EMEA of not having 5 players when this is not even true - BBL Esports is a Turkish team from EMEA which infact has even the coaching staff from Turkey - something not even LOUD has. This basically exposes u as a fraud who wants to exclude and include countries in EU as and when he pleases. the simple fact that most Brazilians flock to western EU leagues in football is enough to say it is better than BR. again - 3 in top 50 is not even a good look and only proves my point.
wrong - the fact we have anti-discriminatory laws says that it is not expected of people to act in a decent way. we need laws to enforce this behavior and yet it is hard to hold people accountable - there is a reason why FIFA keeps shouting say no to racism. this only proves my point that acting in a non-discriminatory manner is appreciable and we need to appreciate the fact that EU has matured enough to support people across diverse backgrounds
wrong - i never said population just means the said country will be the best in everything. i compared India in Cricket and China in Olympics - a very important distinction that i kept repeating that the said country should follow the sport. If you dont understand that different countries follow different sports and support them due to various factors like cultural differences then ur just braindead. Expect everyone to play football just cause its the most viewed is just braindead. I compared apples to apples when I said India has the richest Cricket leagues - a British colonial sport and then compared it with Brazil which does not have the richest football league. Here 2 underdeveloped countries with higher population are being compared. Again ur just shifting goalposts to compare apples with oranges.
wrong - u just exposed urself. why title the thread EMEA come and say Germany and Spain when the most succesful BR club currently has 2 foreigners.. why target specific countries for not having 5 players when the one u support doesnt have it either? u just got exposed for contradicting urself and yes its not a World cup so no there is no reason for them to have 5 players from the same country and when such a tournament is available I can bet these guys will own Br.
kskm [#217]first 3 - wrong - ur just shifting goalposts to include weaker EU countries to somehow score a debate point when u compared BR with stronger EU countries in the thread and realized its a losing battle and changed how the definition of EU is supposed to be used. In your OP itself which u title "EMEA come" u accuse the entire EMEA of not having 5 players when this is not even true - BBL Esports is a Turkish team from EMEA which infact has even the coaching staff from Turkey - something not even LOUD has. This basically exposes u as a fraud who wants to exclude and include countries in EU as and when he pleases. the simple fact that most Brazilians flock to western EU leagues in football is enough to say it is better than BR. again - 3 in top 50 is not even a good look and only proves my point.
wrong - the fact we have anti-discriminatory laws says that it is not expected of people to act in a decent way. we need laws to enforce this behavior and yet it is hard to hold people accountable - there is a reason why FIFA keeps shouting say no to racism. this only proves my point that acting in a non-discriminatory manner is appreciable and we need to appreciate the fact that EU has matured enough to support people across diverse backgrounds
wrong - i never said population just means the said country will be the best in everything. i compared India in Cricket and China in Olympics - a very important distinction that i kept repeating that the said country should follow the sport. If you dont understand that different countries follow different sports and support them due to various factors like cultural differences then ur just braindead. Expect everyone to play football just cause its the most viewed is just braindead. I compared apples to apples when I said India has the richest Cricket leagues - a British colonial sport and then compared it with Brazil which does not have the richest football league. Here 2 underdeveloped countries with higher population are being compared. Again ur just shifting goalposts to compare apples with oranges.
wrong - u just exposed urself. why title the thread EMEA come and say Germany and Spain when the most succesful BR club currently has 2 foreigners.. why target specific countries for not having 5 players when the one u support doesnt have it either? u just got exposed for contradicting urself and yes its not a World cup so no there is no reason for them to have 5 players from the same country and when such a tournament is available I can bet these guys will own Br.
First 3: Not wrong - 1.1 I don't need to include the weaker EU countries in the discussion for the OBVIOUS FACT: THEY ARE ALREADY INCLUDED the moment we mention Europe. It's simple to understand. A continent is not only made up of top-tier countries, wanting to exclude everything that's bad is trying to convince oneself of a half-truth just to feed a false narrative. It's like talking about Rio de Janeiro and only mentioning the beautiful beaches, women, tourist attractions, nightclubs, and forgetting the dark side of the state.
1.2 When I say "EMEA COME," I'm referring to European teams formed by 5 foreigners - just read the content of the post - and there's no need to mention BBL because exceptions were clearly stated such as: Sweden (CS GO) and Denmark (CS GO) in their respective victorious eras, with their respective teams. The purpose of the thread is to know the feeling of Europeans who root for this specific type of team, made up of players with no cultural, national, and linguistic connection. Not those who have a national team because I already know how they feel, of course! Few were able to respond rationally, and the anger that a simple question caused in people is a sign that there's something unresolved about this topic. So I will continue to promote more and more debate on this subject in the forum.
1.3 The fact that Brazilians migrate to Europe is already a debated topic, and it's not enough to say that one region is better than the other because the second-largest population of foreigners in Brazil is Japanese - I can't say that Brazil is better than Japan (in whatever it may be) just by using the migration of Japanese as a argumentative foundation. There are several factors that must be taken into consideration. And speaking of football leagues: several foreigners play in Brazilian leagues, as I mentioned earlier, and this definitely doesn't lead us to the conclusion that "look, we have several foreigners here, which means that their league is weak, and ours is stronger" - wrong for 3 reasons: 1. As you well know, we currently have the strongest league in the world. 2. Europe is the region that imports the most foreign football players in the world; if it were Brazil, we couldn't say that Brazil is better for importing more. 3. They pay enough to convince any player to play in their leagues. These are the conclusions we can draw based on your statements, and in none of them can we say: "see? Europe is better!" Europe earns more than Brazil with football, considering only the 5 strongest leagues. On average - which obviously includes all European countries, it's leveled. The Brazilian championship is the 6th most profitable and valuable in the world, if you clicked on the link I sent, you know this. Everything beyond that is purely speculation and opinion.
1.4 Here you demonstrate not knowing the basics of mathematics. I told you that there are at least 30 European countries with horrible leagues - considering only the first division, in 30 weak leagues we have 600 teams! Europe is composed of 50 countries and some territories. The top 50 is made up of teams from the 5 strongest leagues. The 5 strongest leagues are made up of 100 teams. I left out 15 countries from this calculation, that is, 300 first division teams. In total (600+300+100) we have 1,000 teams, and ONLY 50 of them are in the top 50. That is to say: 50 of these teams earn more than the other 950! This is CLEARLY being above average. And it's no use saying "you didn't refute me" as if that were an argument. It's purely basic math.
Not wrong - "the fact we have anti-discriminatory laws says that it is not expected of people to act in a decent way" (?????????????) The main role of the law is to regulate human behavior. It justly punishes that which is not expected - the abnormal. It is not expected that someone would act outside of normalcy and steal, harass, kill, abuse, or rape someone, but if this happens (an EXCEPTION), the law will punish them for acting in an unnatural way, outside of what is expected of a normal and capable human being to live in society. We cannot expect everyone to have good faith and be good people, which is why there are laws. You are innocent until proven guilty, not "you are considered a suspect until proven otherwise" (my goodness, look where you're going to try to prove you're right!).
"there is a reason why FIFA keeps shouting say no to racism. this only proves my point that acting in a non-discriminatory manner is appreciable" - The reason why FIFA says "say no to racism" is purely PREVENTIVE, which is one of the functions of the law - to prevent and discourage possible future crimes. Many bars have some type of warning on the wall: "the sale of alcoholic beverages to persons under 18 years of age is prohibited" - precisely to fulfill this aforementioned function, seeking to discourage the sale of alcohol to minors and reduce the risks associated with early consumption of this substance. The preventive character of laws is essential for the safety and well-being of society as a whole, as it helps to avoid harmful behaviors, those considered abnormal and that deviate from the norm of what is expected! Traffic signs are other types of warnings that serve to prevent us from committing crimes. Acting to the contrary is to disrespect the laws - it is to act like someone who does not know the limits established by society/the State. No one is applauded for following laws. And that will never be a quality. It is just an empirical testimony of human evolution over time.
Not wrong - 1.1 You mentioned that population is a parameter that we can take into consideration when mentioning the success of a team, citing India (cricket) and China (Olympics). I responded by saying that it is not a parameter and cited India itself in other sports, based on Olympic medals, and Brazil. India being the best in cricket is something very specific. European, North American, and South American countries being better than India in any other sport, despite having a much smaller population, is something common and easily observable. Brazil not being the richest in football only proves that population does not interfere at all and India is an exception in a very specific area. You base your argumentation on exceptions and I base mine on what is more common and observable.
1.2 In an increasingly globalized world, individuals tend to follow the masses. People from different countries are increasingly following sports that the vast majority likes/watches and consuming more and more common content. The media has a fundamental role in this process, broadcasting sporting events and cultural programs worldwide, allowing people in different countries to engage and be influenced by the same tastes and trends. Expecting the vast majority not to play football, being the most watched, practiced, and shared sport in the world, through the internet, media, apps, companies, among others, is just braindead.
Not wrong - Here you completely lose your reasoning because I can mention Germany, Spain, UK, Italy, Norway, or any other EMEA team that does not have a lineup of at least 3 people from the same country. Did you expect me to mention all the other 48 European countries just to exemplify my point? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! For a team to have national representation, it is enough for only THREE members to have the same nationality. In the case of Loud, they could still have one more foreign player and still have a Brazilian core lineup. My argument is perfectly understandable, there should be no difficulties regarding that. You can be from the EMEA and support the EMEA, but it's not like you have a choice. Most of the time there won't be a team with national representation within the EU, specifically in Valorant.
Astroman77 [#218]First 3: Not wrong - 1.1 I don't need to include the weaker EU countries in the discussion for the OBVIOUS FACT: THEY ARE ALREADY INCLUDED the moment we mention Europe. It's simple to understand. A continent is not only made up of top-tier countries, wanting to exclude everything that's bad is trying to convince oneself of a half-truth just to feed a false narrative. It's like talking about Rio de Janeiro and only mentioning the beautiful beaches, women, tourist attractions, nightclubs, and forgetting the dark side of the state.
1.2 When I say "EMEA COME," I'm referring to European teams formed by 5 foreigners - just read the content of the post - and there's no need to mention BBL because exceptions were clearly stated such as: Sweden (CS GO) and Denmark (CS GO) in their respective victorious eras, with their respective teams. The purpose of the thread is to know the feeling of Europeans who root for this specific type of team, made up of players with no cultural, national, and linguistic connection. Not those who have a national team because I already know how they feel, of course! Few were able to respond rationally, and the anger that a simple question caused in people is a sign that there's something unresolved about this topic. So I will continue to promote more and more debate on this subject in the forum.
1.3 The fact that Brazilians migrate to Europe is already a debated topic, and it's not enough to say that one region is better than the other because the second-largest population of foreigners in Brazil is Japanese - I can't say that Brazil is better than Japan (in whatever it may be) just by using the migration of Japanese as a argumentative foundation. There are several factors that must be taken into consideration. And speaking of football leagues: several foreigners play in Brazilian leagues, as I mentioned earlier, and this definitely doesn't lead us to the conclusion that "look, we have several foreigners here, which means that their league is weak, and ours is stronger" - wrong for 3 reasons: 1. As you well know, we currently have the strongest league in the world. 2. Europe is the region that imports the most foreign football players in the world; if it were Brazil, we couldn't say that Brazil is better for importing more. 3. They pay enough to convince any player to play in their leagues. These are the conclusions we can draw based on your statements, and in none of them can we say: "see? Europe is better!" Europe earns more than Brazil with football, considering only the 5 strongest leagues. On average - which obviously includes all European countries, it's leveled. The Brazilian championship is the 6th most profitable and valuable in the world, if you clicked on the link I sent, you know this. Everything beyond that is purely speculation and opinion.
1.4 Here you demonstrate not knowing the basics of mathematics. I told you that there are at least 30 European countries with horrible leagues - considering only the first division, in 30 weak leagues we have 600 teams! Europe is composed of 50 countries and some territories. The top 50 is made up of teams from the 5 strongest leagues. The 5 strongest leagues are made up of 100 teams. I left out 15 countries from this calculation, that is, 300 first division teams. In total (600+300+100) we have 1,000 teams, and ONLY 50 of them are in the top 50. That is to say: 50 of these teams earn more than the other 950! This is CLEARLY being above average. And it's no use saying "you didn't refute me" as if that were an argument. It's purely basic math.
Not wrong - "the fact we have anti-discriminatory laws says that it is not expected of people to act in a decent way" (?????????????) The main role of the law is to regulate human behavior. It justly punishes that which is not expected - the abnormal. It is not expected that someone would act outside of normalcy and steal, harass, kill, abuse, or rape someone, but if this happens (an EXCEPTION), the law will punish them for acting in an unnatural way, outside of what is expected of a normal and capable human being to live in society. We cannot expect everyone to have good faith and be good people, which is why there are laws. You are innocent until proven guilty, not "you are considered a suspect until proven otherwise" (my goodness, look where you're going to try to prove you're right!).
"there is a reason why FIFA keeps shouting say no to racism. this only proves my point that acting in a non-discriminatory manner is appreciable" - The reason why FIFA says "say no to racism" is purely PREVENTIVE, which is one of the functions of the law - to prevent and discourage possible future crimes. Many bars have some type of warning on the wall: "the sale of alcoholic beverages to persons under 18 years of age is prohibited" - precisely to fulfill this aforementioned function, seeking to discourage the sale of alcohol to minors and reduce the risks associated with early consumption of this substance. The preventive character of laws is essential for the safety and well-being of society as a whole, as it helps to avoid harmful behaviors, those considered abnormal and that deviate from the norm of what is expected! Traffic signs are other types of warnings that serve to prevent us from committing crimes. Acting to the contrary is to disrespect the laws - it is to act like someone who does not know the limits established by society/the State. No one is applauded for following laws. And that will never be a quality. It is just an empirical testimony of human evolution over time.
Not wrong - 1.1 You mentioned that population is a parameter that we can take into consideration when mentioning the success of a team, citing India (cricket) and China (Olympics). I responded by saying that it is not a parameter and cited India itself in other sports, based on Olympic medals, and Brazil. India being the best in cricket is something very specific. European, North American, and South American countries being better than India in any other sport, despite having a much smaller population, is something common and easily observable. Brazil not being the richest in football only proves that population does not interfere at all and India is an exception in a very specific area. You base your argumentation on exceptions and I base mine on what is more common and observable.
1.2 In an increasingly globalized world, individuals tend to follow the masses. People from different countries are increasingly following sports that the vast majority likes/watches and consuming more and more common content. The media has a fundamental role in this process, broadcasting sporting events and cultural programs worldwide, allowing people in different countries to engage and be influenced by the same tastes and trends. Expecting the vast majority not to play football, being the most watched, practiced, and shared sport in the world, through the internet, media, apps, companies, among others, is just braindead.
Not wrong - Here you completely lose your reasoning because I can mention Germany, Spain, UK, Italy, Norway, or any other EMEA team that does not have a lineup of at least 3 people from the same country. Did you expect me to mention all the other 48 European countries just to exemplify my point? Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! For a team to have national representation, it is enough for only THREE members to have the same nationality. In the case of Loud, they could still have one more foreign player and still have a Brazilian core lineup. My argument is perfectly understandable, there should be no difficulties regarding that. You can be from the EMEA and support the EMEA, but it's not like you have a choice. Most of the time there won't be a team with national representation within the EU, specifically in Valorant.
book1 - wrong - ur title says EMEA come and gives example of exceptions in CS, not Valorant implying nobody in EMEA experiences the so called beautiful thing of cheering for ur nation. there arent 10000s of EMEA teams in the franchised world - there are 10 and 3 of them infact have more than 3 players of same nationality - Karmine Corp, FUT Esports, and BBL. So yes u did not do ur research on the topic and ur OP question was not sincere. Here you used EMEA - infact more than a continent to generalize but when i say EU u want me to include clubs from the vatican city to drive some stupid point. Hypocricy and idiocy is insane. again the same shit with football - ur best of the best play in the best of the best leagues in EUROPE not Brazil - the majority of them do - that just refutes any stupid unresearched links u paste to shift the goalpost and include countries that dont care about football.
book2 wrong - again the same shit, comparing oranges to apples. laws are not universal - they are different in different countries and even enforced differently. For example LGBTQ rights might be considered basic human rights and discrimination could go punished in some countries while in some countries it could be actively encouraged/discouraged by the state. Thus there is no universal definition of "abnormal" behavior. Another example : people from Pakistan and India are actively discouraged by both the countries to participate in sports, music etc. Usa ACTIVELY discourages people from hostile countries to immigrate and play in their sports or act in their movies. These are not exceptions, even if they are it is enough to counter any point made that suggests that there is anti-discriminatory laws that protect everyone everywhere. A European state can and will if they want to - actively discourage Brazilian players to play in their league without being held accountable for their actions. The fact that they dont do such stuff - is not bound by any law - for there is no such international law so it out of their benevolence that they do it and it should be appreciated. dont bring that stupid "oh it increases competitivenenes" argument again cause i already refuted it by saying historically people have discriminated against diversity EVEN if it means increase in competitiveness.
wrong - it is not specific rather an example how developing countries with lower overall budgets have defeated countries with more wealth in the sports they are passionate about. Just the fact that best cricket players from Europe and Australia and Americas go and play in India is an example of what could happen in Brazil with Football - a sport they are good at but fails to happen. China winning record medals every year is another example of a developing nation with lower budget to spend on Sports does something really spectacular. You bringing in the idea of washed tier 10 EU players playing in Brazil only further proves my point and shows that ur hell bent on shifting goalposts.
wrong and hypocritical - i already refuted this several times and shown 3/10 EMEA franchised teams have national lineups. There are 4/5 serious countries in Americas and 48 in EMEA so even if they have 3 core national lineups that is praise worthy.
kskm [#219]book1 - wrong - ur title says EMEA come and gives example of exceptions in CS, not Valorant implying nobody in EMEA experiences the so called beautiful thing of cheering for ur nation. there arent 10000s of EMEA teams in the franchised world - there are 10 and 3 of them infact have more than 3 players of same nationality - Karmine Corp, FUT Esports, and BBL. So yes u did not do ur research on the topic and ur OP question was not sincere. Here you used EMEA - infact more than a continent to generalize but when i say EU u want me to include clubs from the vatican city to drive some stupid point. Hypocricy and idiocy is insane. again the same shit with football - ur best of the best play in the best of the best leagues in EUROPE not Brazil - the majority of them do - that just refutes any stupid unresearched links u paste to shift the goalpost and include countries that dont care about football.
book2 wrong - again the same shit, comparing oranges to apples. laws are not universal - they are different in different countries and even enforced differently. For example LGBTQ rights might be considered basic human rights and discrimination could go punished in some countries while in some countries it could be actively encouraged/discouraged by the state. Thus there is no universal definition of "abnormal" behavior. Another example : people from Pakistan and India are actively discouraged by both the countries to participate in sports, music etc. Usa ACTIVELY discourages people from hostile countries to immigrate and play in their sports or act in their movies. These are not exceptions, even if they are it is enough to counter any point made that suggests that there is anti-discriminatory laws that protect everyone everywhere. A European state can and will if they want to - actively discourage Brazilian players to play in their league without being held accountable for their actions. The fact that they dont do such stuff - is not bound by any law - for there is no such international law so it out of their benevolence that they do it and it should be appreciated. dont bring that stupid "oh it increases competitivenenes" argument again cause i already refuted it by saying historically people have discriminated against diversity EVEN if it means increase in competitiveness.
wrong - it is not specific rather an example how developing countries with lower overall budgets have defeated countries with more wealth in the sports they are passionate about. Just the fact that best cricket players from Europe and Australia and Americas go and play in India is an example of what could happen in Brazil with Football - a sport they are good at but fails to happen. China winning record medals every year is another example of a developing nation with lower budget to spend on Sports does something really spectacular. You bringing in the idea of washed tier 10 EU players playing in Brazil only further proves my point and shows that ur hell bent on shifting goalposts.
wrong and hypocritical - i already refuted this several times and shown 3/10 EMEA franchised teams have national lineups. There are 4/5 serious countries in Americas and 48 in EMEA so even if they have 3 core national lineups that is praise worthy.
Book 1 - Not wrong - 1 -> My question was clear and applies to any team in any e-sports game in the EMEA region. In summary: "How do you feel about not having national representatives to cheer for, with the EXCEPTION OF... and having to root for 5 foreigners?" In the post itself, 2 Poles responded to me citing VP and I agreed that I had not mentioned all the teams and didn't need to, because the question was DIRECTLY FOR THOSE WHO CHEER FOR 5 FOREIGNERS. "Oh, but there are several EMEA teams in other games with a lineup of at least 3 players from the same country" - So what? Those teams are not the focus of the debate. KC is not the focus, FUT is not the focus, BBL is not the focus. After all, it doesn't make sense for me to ask, "Hey Turks, how does it feel to cheer for a team with national representatives?" or "Hey Germans, how does it feel?" because THEY have already celebrated in the past and currently have a developed e-sports scene in their countries, so I wouldn't ask something I already know. I'm referring to Greeks, Armenians, British, Dutch and many others that I don't need to cite meticulously, country by country. THESE are the ones who don't have national representatives with a lineup of at least 3 players and cheer for teams like fnatic, NaVi, Liquid, FaZe, among others. It's basic interpretation. What's difficult to understand about that? Am I not speaking clear English?
2 -> I only mention EMEA when I'm talking about Valorant (e-sports in general) and I mention EU when I'm talking about football, I didn't think it needed to be explained! Again: Europe is composed of over 60% weak leagues and countries without tradition in football. If you don't want the bad part to be included in a debate about EUROPE, then don't mention "EUROPE" - because that includes the entire continent. You're doing mental gymnastics just to think you're right, even though you know you're wrong. What needed to be refuted here has already been refuted. You're just repeating the same thing.
Book 2 - Not wrong - The definition of "abnormal" behavior is given by society, in agreement with the State that regulates such behavior through laws. If you live in a country where being prejudiced is a crime, then it doesn't matter if this is a universal law or not - obviously, every region has its own legislation. By disregarding the laws, a person is acting contrary to the values and norms that govern life in society, which can cause harm to oneself and others. No sane human being seeks or takes actions to be harmed and punished, therefore, acting in disagreement with what is established by the State is acting in an unnatural and abnormal way. It is expected that you OBEY the law like any other fellow citizen. You are not expected to be a criminal. Again - you are considered innocent until proven otherwise. Even if you are accused of something, the word of another is not enough evidence, as the principle of innocence is a global right guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. From the moment a pattern/attitude is framed as something to be avoided and punishable, in a particular country, you will obey the will of the majority (the laws of your country are created through a democratic process). Disobedience implies not acting in the way that society/State expects. In Iran, it is abnormal to be gay. This "abnormality" is punished by law. In Europe, it is expected that people are not prejudiced, otherwise, they are acting outside the normality that is expected and are punished. The law imposes limits, you can do everything that is not prohibited. Acting within the limits of the constitution and the civil/criminal code is not something to be proud of. You just don't want to be punished or arrested for acting differently than what is expected of you. I don't know why you're coming back to this point again. You only thought of something to try and refute me, saying that "laws are not universal," when it doesn't change anything about the central point that led to this debate - it is not a virtue to obey laws, you are not applauded for not committing crimes! It is easier for you to receive credits for disobeying some outdated and authoritarian law than for obeying something that is already expected.
Not wrong - You talked and talked but didn't refute the point of "you cite exceptions while you have to deal with me alongside common and observable events." You use India and China to validate a line of reasoning based on EXCEPTION. "Oh, it could be like this." Okay - but most of the time it isn't. Population size doesn't influence anything. Factors such as sports culture, infrastructure, funding, quality of coaches and players, among others, are much more determinative of success than mere population size. And that's very obvious in practice.
????????????????? - I didn't understand what you meant here and which argument you were refuting. If you could edit and formulate a better response, I would appreciate it and will come back with an edited response on the same point.
Astroman77 [#220]Book 1 - Not wrong - 1 -> My question was clear and applies to any team in any e-sports game in the EMEA region. In summary: "How do you feel about not having national representatives to cheer for, with the EXCEPTION OF... and having to root for 5 foreigners?" In the post itself, 2 Poles responded to me citing VP and I agreed that I had not mentioned all the teams and didn't need to, because the question was DIRECTLY FOR THOSE WHO CHEER FOR 5 FOREIGNERS. "Oh, but there are several EMEA teams in other games with a lineup of at least 3 players from the same country" - So what? Those teams are not the focus of the debate. KC is not the focus, FUT is not the focus, BBL is not the focus. After all, it doesn't make sense for me to ask, "Hey Turks, how does it feel to cheer for a team with national representatives?" or "Hey Germans, how does it feel?" because THEY have already celebrated in the past and currently have a developed e-sports scene in their countries, so I wouldn't ask something I already know. I'm referring to Greeks, Armenians, British, Dutch and many others that I don't need to cite meticulously, country by country. THESE are the ones who don't have national representatives with a lineup of at least 3 players and cheer for teams like fnatic, NaVi, Liquid, FaZe, among others. It's basic interpretation. What's difficult to understand about that? Am I not speaking clear English?
2 -> I only mention EMEA when I'm talking about Valorant (e-sports in general) and I mention EU when I'm talking about football, I didn't think it needed to be explained! Again: Europe is composed of over 60% weak leagues and countries without tradition in football. If you don't want the bad part to be included in a debate about EUROPE, then don't mention "EUROPE" - because that includes the entire continent. You're doing mental gymnastics just to think you're right, even though you know you're wrong. What needed to be refuted here has already been refuted. You're just repeating the same thing.
Book 2 - Not wrong - The definition of "abnormal" behavior is given by society, in agreement with the State that regulates such behavior through laws. If you live in a country where being prejudiced is a crime, then it doesn't matter if this is a universal law or not - obviously, every region has its own legislation. By disregarding the laws, a person is acting contrary to the values and norms that govern life in society, which can cause harm to oneself and others. No sane human being seeks or takes actions to be harmed and punished, therefore, acting in disagreement with what is established by the State is acting in an unnatural and abnormal way. It is expected that you OBEY the law like any other fellow citizen. You are not expected to be a criminal. Again - you are considered innocent until proven otherwise. Even if you are accused of something, the word of another is not enough evidence, as the principle of innocence is a global right guaranteed by the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. From the moment a pattern/attitude is framed as something to be avoided and punishable, in a particular country, you will obey the will of the majority (the laws of your country are created through a democratic process). Disobedience implies not acting in the way that society/State expects. In Iran, it is abnormal to be gay. This "abnormality" is punished by law. In Europe, it is expected that people are not prejudiced, otherwise, they are acting outside the normality that is expected and are punished. The law imposes limits, you can do everything that is not prohibited. Acting within the limits of the constitution and the civil/criminal code is not something to be proud of. You just don't want to be punished or arrested for acting differently than what is expected of you. I don't know why you're coming back to this point again. You only thought of something to try and refute me, saying that "laws are not universal," when it doesn't change anything about the central point that led to this debate - it is not a virtue to obey laws, you are not applauded for not committing crimes! It is easier for you to receive credits for disobeying some outdated and authoritarian law than for obeying something that is already expected.
Not wrong - You talked and talked but didn't refute the point of "you cite exceptions while you have to deal with me alongside common and observable events." You use India and China to validate a line of reasoning based on EXCEPTION. "Oh, it could be like this." Okay - but most of the time it isn't. Population size doesn't influence anything. Factors such as sports culture, infrastructure, funding, quality of coaches and players, among others, are much more determinative of success than mere population size. And that's very obvious in practice.
????????????????? - I didn't understand what you meant here and which argument you were refuting. If you could edit and formulate a better response, I would appreciate it and will come back with an edited response on the same point.
book 1 wrong and hypocritical - reread ur title and OP. EMEA = Europe, Middle East and Africa - exception provided: Sweden and Denmark in CS. Post made in Valorant forum. Expectation : talking about all esports and only those who cant cheer for a team. It is "obviously" clear and not region baiting when "EMEA COME" is the title and when countries in APAC for example have majority foreigners playing too - why target EMEA in that case? Everything u say is clear and carries implicit meaning when others say "Europe" they should explicitly mention only the rich leagues or else not use that term but u can use the term EMEA and one should understand u "obviously" dont mean 3/10 franchised clubs.
book 2 - bunch of bullshit definitions provided which miss the entire premise and refutes nothing. reread or get an adult to read my previous post to understand it.
wrong - already refuted that India and China are not exceptions, rather examples of how countries can and do invest and make the best out of the sports THEY SUPPORT and PLAY. google for more examples - wait why would u do that lmao - you only google for links which support ur narrative not question ur bullshit personal believes.
nah im chillin ive given enough examples, structured arguments and information to educate u, u can reread entire posts to get a better grip on reality. ur OP question was never sincere - it was a pathetic attempt to mock a specific region - I aint even from EMEA and can read it just the like the rest of vlr did and downvoted the shit out of it. keep malding and writing books!!
kskm [#221]book 1 wrong and hypocritical - reread ur title and OP. EMEA = Europe, Middle East and Africa - exception provided: Sweden and Denmark in CS. Post made in Valorant forum. Expectation : talking about all esports and only those who cant cheer for a team. It is "obviously" clear and not region baiting when "EMEA COME" is the title and when countries in APAC for example have majority foreigners playing too - why target EMEA in that case? Everything u say is clear and carries implicit meaning when others say "Europe" they should explicitly mention only the rich leagues or else not use that term but u can use the term EMEA and one should understand u "obviously" dont mean 3/10 franchised clubs.
book 2 - bunch of bullshit definitions provided which miss the entire premise and refutes nothing. reread or get an adult to read my previous post to understand it.
wrong - already refuted that India and China are not exceptions, rather examples of how countries can and do invest and make the best out of the sports THEY SUPPORT and PLAY. google for more examples - wait why would u do that lmao - you only google for links which support ur narrative not question ur bullshit personal believes.
nah im chillin ive given enough examples, structured arguments and information to educate u, u can reread entire posts to get a better grip on reality. ur OP question was never sincere - it was a pathetic attempt to mock a specific region - I aint even from EMEA and can read it just the like the rest of vlr did and downvoted the shit out of it. keep malding and writing books!!
Book 1 - Not wrong - I mentioned 2 teams as exceptions ("oh my god there are others!!!"), but it becomes clear when interpreting the question that it is directly addressed to EMEA teams that do not fit the exception. "What is it like to cheer for teams with 5 foreigners?" - This excludes teams like the ones mentioned and all others that have at least 3 representatives from the same country. Clearly, I just wanted to make it clear that there are exceptions by mentioning Sweden and Denmark, leaving it free for the reader to automatically associate other teams that come to mind that also do not fit my question. There is a clear and defined target of people to be targeted, and it does not include people who do not cheer for a very diverse team. This is very obvious, by the way.
There is no other way to refer to people from countries without competitive teams with national representatives other than EMEA - when I refer to the EMEA region. It doesn't make sense for me to research country by country and then address the question to: "hey you from Greece, Romania, Azerbaijan, Lithuania, Netherlands, Vatican, etc, etc, etc, etc". It's all implied in the message. I wanted to ask the question specifically to people from this region. For obvious reasons: it is the most diverse of all the others.
Book 2 - Not wrong - You saying that I didn't refute doesn't make your previous argument, which was refuted, not refuted. You basically say: "It is praiseworthy and admirable when a person respects a law, such as not discriminating, because in other countries it is not a law. Therefore, it is not a universal norm for people to act in such a way," when respect and obedience of a law ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD is not something to be proud of. That's the point. Each nation has its own legislation based on the history and culture of the country. If it's prohibited to be prejudiced in Europe and you respect a European law, you're just doing what's expected of any citizen who doesn't want to be punished and acts according to society's desires. It's a natural movement. You won't be applauded for not being a murderer, harasser, rapist, thief, prejudiced, or racist because that's what's expected of European citizens! In other places, other things are expected. That's the point, and there's no refutation because it's based on a perceptible reality. It's not like you can say, "No, it's different here. We applaud people for not committing crimes because everyone is expected to be a criminal."
Not wrong - You don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You cited India and China to prove your weak argument that population quantity can be used as a parameter to measure a country's success in sports. It has nothing to do with supporting/playing/investing. You basically say, "look, India is the best in the world in cricket, a country with 1.4 billion inhabitants achieves such a feat, so my narrative that population equals success makes some sense" - no, it doesn't. As I said: it's an exception. Cricket. There are countless sports in which they are bad. Jamaica with 4 million inhabitants is more successful, sports-wise, than India. "oh but what about China, they are really good in the Olympics with a population of 1.4 billion, my narrative still stands!" - no, it doesn't. China, as a country, is an exception. And despite being good in the Olympics, they can barely qualify for the football World Cup.
You provided no structured and substantiated argument, no statistical data, no scientific research, no genuinely useful and relevant information to support your reasoning. It was all based on "I think this, so it must be true." Something that any layperson without any study on the topics discussed could do. The most you did was use a research that I had already sent, from the IFFHS - an institute that you probably had never heard of - proving in my favor that currently the Brazilian league is the strongest in the world. Your only attempt to contribute minimally to the debate by sending some data, link, or whatever, was to self-refute. My question was directed to people from the EMEA. There is no way to know the sincerity/lack of sincerity of words typed on a forum, it's speculation on your part to say that I was trying to mock, you don't even know what my intention was. If they voted negatively, then it's a sign that it bothers them, nothing more than that. You know what else bothers? The truth.
Astroman77 [#222]Book 1 - Not wrong - I mentioned 2 teams as exceptions ("oh my god there are others!!!"), but it becomes clear when interpreting the question that it is directly addressed to EMEA teams that do not fit the exception. "What is it like to cheer for teams with 5 foreigners?" - This excludes teams like the ones mentioned and all others that have at least 3 representatives from the same country. Clearly, I just wanted to make it clear that there are exceptions by mentioning Sweden and Denmark, leaving it free for the reader to automatically associate other teams that come to mind that also do not fit my question. There is a clear and defined target of people to be targeted, and it does not include people who do not cheer for a very diverse team. This is very obvious, by the way.
There is no other way to refer to people from countries without competitive teams with national representatives other than EMEA - when I refer to the EMEA region. It doesn't make sense for me to research country by country and then address the question to: "hey you from Greece, Romania, Azerbaijan, Lithuania, Netherlands, Vatican, etc, etc, etc, etc". It's all implied in the message. I wanted to ask the question specifically to people from this region. For obvious reasons: it is the most diverse of all the others.Book 2 - Not wrong - You saying that I didn't refute doesn't make your previous argument, which was refuted, not refuted. You basically say: "It is praiseworthy and admirable when a person respects a law, such as not discriminating, because in other countries it is not a law. Therefore, it is not a universal norm for people to act in such a way," when respect and obedience of a law ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD is not something to be proud of. That's the point. Each nation has its own legislation based on the history and culture of the country. If it's prohibited to be prejudiced in Europe and you respect a European law, you're just doing what's expected of any citizen who doesn't want to be punished and acts according to society's desires. It's a natural movement. You won't be applauded for not being a murderer, harasser, rapist, thief, prejudiced, or racist because that's what's expected of European citizens! In other places, other things are expected. That's the point, and there's no refutation because it's based on a perceptible reality. It's not like you can say, "No, it's different here. We applaud people for not committing crimes because everyone is expected to be a criminal."
Not wrong - You don't even know what you're talking about anymore. You cited India and China to prove your weak argument that population quantity can be used as a parameter to measure a country's success in sports. It has nothing to do with supporting/playing/investing. You basically say, "look, India is the best in the world in cricket, a country with 1.4 billion inhabitants achieves such a feat, so my narrative that population equals success makes some sense" - no, it doesn't. As I said: it's an exception. Cricket. There are countless sports in which they are bad. Jamaica with 4 million inhabitants is more successful, sports-wise, than India. "oh but what about China, they are really good in the Olympics with a population of 1.4 billion, my narrative still stands!" - no, it doesn't. China, as a country, is an exception. And despite being good in the Olympics, they can barely qualify for the football World Cup.
You provided no structured and substantiated argument, no statistical data, no scientific research, no genuinely useful and relevant information to support your reasoning. It was all based on "I think this, so it must be true." Something that any layperson without any study on the topics discussed could do. The most you did was use a research that I had already sent, from the IFFHS - an institute that you probably had never heard of - proving in my favor that currently the Brazilian league is the strongest in the world. Your only attempt to contribute minimally to the debate by sending some data, link, or whatever, was to self-refute. My question was directed to people from the EMEA. There is no way to know the sincerity/lack of sincerity of words typed on a forum, it's speculation on your part to say that I was trying to mock, you don't even know what my intention was. If they voted negatively, then it's a sign that it bothers them, nothing more than that. You know what else bothers? The truth.
book 1 wrong and hypocritical - reread ur title and OP. EMEA = Europe, Middle East and Africa - exception provided: Sweden and Denmark in CS. Post made in Valorant forum. Expectation : talking about all esports and only those who cant cheer for a team. It is "obviously" clear and not region baiting when "EMEA COME" is the title and when countries in APAC for example have majority foreigners playing too - why target EMEA in that case? Everything u say is clear and carries implicit meaning when others say "Europe" they should explicitly mention only the rich leagues or else not use that term but u can use the term EMEA and one should understand u "obviously" dont mean 3/10 franchised clubs. no rebuttal provided here
book 2 - reread or get an adult to read my previous post to understand it. laws are niether universal nor enforced universally so no they are not expected behavior. no rebuttal provided here
wrong - already refuted that India and China are not exceptions, rather examples of how countries can and do invest and make the best out of the sports THEY SUPPORT and PLAY. google for more examples - wait why would u do that lmao - you only google for links which support ur narrative not question ur bullshit personal believes. desperate attempt made to compare WCs of India and Jamaica when I was clearly comparing Indian Cricket League to Brazilian footballs league and to Chinese Olympic performance - two examples provided ("I mentioned 2 teams as exceptions ("oh my god there are others!!!")" - use same logic here to google for more examples of APPLES TO APPLES comparisons to educate urself). any desperate attempt to make an apples to oranges comparison is no rebuttal provided. reread my previous posts to get a clearer understanding.
all ur links are unresearched, twisting of facts to fit a narrative which i have already refuted several times in the thread including the iffhs one - reread my previous posts to understand it. my job isnt here to educate and enlighten you, just because I am responding, ur expecting me to spend more than 30 seconds to refute every stupid strawman argument you make on an online forum is crazy. none of my claims are personal opinions and i have stated where it is my personal opinion, ive asked u to google for more information on the subjects where u clearly lack information - feel free to do that by highlighting every fact ive mentioned on this thread. there is no judge here to decide whose arguments are better but the users - if anyone is bothered by the comments on this forum they just report - downvoting is a sign of saying ur takes are awful - nobody is "bothered" by ur comments based on twisted data - dont confuse urself as someone who is bothering people by talking the truth on an online forum - most people here troll and bait and nobody takes anyone seriously. on the contrary i feel ur the one bothered by my comments on Brazil which made u research twisted data and present false narratives
kskm [#223]book 1 wrong and hypocritical - reread ur title and OP. EMEA = Europe, Middle East and Africa - exception provided: Sweden and Denmark in CS. Post made in Valorant forum. Expectation : talking about all esports and only those who cant cheer for a team. It is "obviously" clear and not region baiting when "EMEA COME" is the title and when countries in APAC for example have majority foreigners playing too - why target EMEA in that case? Everything u say is clear and carries implicit meaning when others say "Europe" they should explicitly mention only the rich leagues or else not use that term but u can use the term EMEA and one should understand u "obviously" dont mean 3/10 franchised clubs. no rebuttal provided here
book 2 - reread or get an adult to read my previous post to understand it. laws are niether universal nor enforced universally so no they are not expected behavior. no rebuttal provided here
wrong - already refuted that India and China are not exceptions, rather examples of how countries can and do invest and make the best out of the sports THEY SUPPORT and PLAY. google for more examples - wait why would u do that lmao - you only google for links which support ur narrative not question ur bullshit personal believes. desperate attempt made to compare WCs of India and Jamaica when I was clearly comparing Indian Cricket League to Brazilian footballs league and to Chinese Olympic performance - two examples provided ("I mentioned 2 teams as exceptions ("oh my god there are others!!!")" - use same logic here to google for more examples of APPLES TO APPLES comparisons to educate urself). any desperate attempt to make an apples to oranges comparison is no rebuttal provided. reread my previous posts to get a clearer understanding.
all ur links are unresearched, twisting of facts to fit a narrative which i have already refuted several times in the thread including the iffhs one - reread my previous posts to understand it. my job isnt here to educate and enlighten you, just because I am responding, ur expecting me to spend more than 30 seconds to refute every stupid strawman argument you make on an online forum is crazy. none of my claims are personal opinions and i have stated where it is my personal opinion, ive asked u to google for more information on the subjects where u clearly lack information - feel free to do that by highlighting every fact ive mentioned on this thread. there is no judge here to decide whose arguments are better but the users - if anyone is bothered by the comments on this forum they just report - downvoting is a sign of saying ur takes are awful - nobody is "bothered" by ur comments based on twisted data - dont confuse urself as someone who is bothering people by talking the truth on an online forum - most people here troll and bait and nobody takes anyone seriously. on the contrary i feel ur the one bothered by my comments on Brazil which made u research twisted data and present false narratives
Book 1 - Not wrong - Everything you're saying here has been addressed in the previous post and if you use your brain even a little bit, you'll understand it perfectly well. You copied and pasted something that has already been countered. In short, it's clearly for any sport, or else I wouldn't have mentioned CS as an example and KR - the biggest power in LoL. I don't care about APAC, the question was for the EMEA region. Basically, everyone who commented on the post understood the question except for you. Yes, when I say "EMEA COME" and follow it up with the question "how do you feel about having to cheer for 5 foreigners" - I expect only those who fit this criterion to respond. That's why I mentioned a few countries as exceptions. The association that a German, for example, shouldn't answer my question because they have teams with national representation, is made automatically by the German who thinks: "okay, this question isn't for me, even though he said 'EMEA COME.' I have teams within the EMEA to cheer for, such as BIG. I'll let others respond."
Book 2 - Not wrong - As I said, expected behaviors vary from country to country. If you ask someone with better interpretation skills, they will help you understand. In Iran, a certain type of social behavior is expected, in accordance with their laws and culture. In the US, a different type of behavior is expected, in accordance with their laws and culture. In China, yet another type of behavior is expected, also in accordance with their laws and customs. The laws govern and dictate how society behaves. The fact that laws are not universal does not prevent classifying a behavior as normal/natural in YOUR COUNTRY, just because it is unnatural in another. In Middle Eastern countries where women are not allowed to go out in public without a headscarf/veil, it is expected that they comply with the law. It is natural for them, despite being unnatural for Western countries. A clear example. Nobody is proud of following a law, as it is nothing less than expected and natural for any human living in society. In fact, many women are protesting against this outdated and antiquated law, taking to the streets with their hair uncovered as a form of indignation against the government. Not following a certain law, then, can be considered an act of pride and something deserving of credit, but it is rare and depends on the context. Following laws? Expected, normal, and definitely not a quality. I want to point out that it is very easy and comfortable to be on this side of the argument, defending the obvious, as it aligns with a rational and observable thought process. True. Trying to refute this is like trying to stop a train going 200km/h with your hand.
Not wrong - India and China were initially cited by you as examples of populous countries that can have some kind of success in sports. Don't you remember what you wrote? It's no fun, it seems like I'm debating with someone who gets lost in their own arguments and has amnesia. India with ...... 1.4 billion inhabitants!! and China with ...... 1.4 billion inhabitants! Coincidence that the two most populous countries in the world are here in this line of reasoning? No, we were specifically discussing that. Population capacity and its relationship to success in sports. There's nothing about "THEY SUPPORT and PLAY". You mentioned only 2 countries because they are definitely exceptions. Moreover, you can't say "look, this country is very good at this because it is very populous." Cricket itself is an exception in something that India is good at because there are countless other sports in which they are not good. Besides, India is an exception that only works for ONE specific sport. China is an exception as a COUNTRY. And yet, it is surpassed by less populous countries. Nonetheless, your argument is flawed because there is NO SCIENTIFIC STUDY that categorically proves that populous countries have greater guarantees of success. But there are scientific studies that prove what is necessary to succeed in sports, such as proper nutrition, adopted routine, training, good professionals working alongside the athlete, among others.
Narrating what you think is happening in this debate won't make that thought true. Saying "I refuted" - when you only give opinions that are immediately rebutted in the next post, doesn't change reality or make an argument valid. Literally, the majority of your responses were based on opinions, while I grounded mine with data, links, and articles. It's a fact. Just look at the beginning of the discussion. We're not even talking about topics that have already been properly clarified. Saying that "none of your opinions were personal" or saying that "I bring false arguments" doesn't have the power to alter reality, it just serves as a mental comfort for you to think you're right. But I understand you, it's like a defendant trying to prove in court that he didn't commit a crime (that he did), trying to deceive the jury with false arguments. He vainly tries to deceive himself, while everyone around him looks at him with that face of "dude, it doesn't matter what you say, we had witnesses at the scene, concrete evidence, and even security cameras."
Astroman77 [#224]Book 1 - Not wrong - Everything you're saying here has been addressed in the previous post and if you use your brain even a little bit, you'll understand it perfectly well. You copied and pasted something that has already been countered. In short, it's clearly for any sport, or else I wouldn't have mentioned CS as an example and KR - the biggest power in LoL. I don't care about APAC, the question was for the EMEA region. Basically, everyone who commented on the post understood the question except for you. Yes, when I say "EMEA COME" and follow it up with the question "how do you feel about having to cheer for 5 foreigners" - I expect only those who fit this criterion to respond. That's why I mentioned a few countries as exceptions. The association that a German, for example, shouldn't answer my question because they have teams with national representation, is made automatically by the German who thinks: "okay, this question isn't for me, even though he said 'EMEA COME.' I have teams within the EMEA to cheer for, such as BIG. I'll let others respond."
Book 2 - Not wrong - As I said, expected behaviors vary from country to country. If you ask someone with better interpretation skills, they will help you understand. In Iran, a certain type of social behavior is expected, in accordance with their laws and culture. In the US, a different type of behavior is expected, in accordance with their laws and culture. In China, yet another type of behavior is expected, also in accordance with their laws and customs. The laws govern and dictate how society behaves. The fact that laws are not universal does not prevent classifying a behavior as normal/natural in YOUR COUNTRY, just because it is unnatural in another. In Middle Eastern countries where women are not allowed to go out in public without a headscarf/veil, it is expected that they comply with the law. It is natural for them, despite being unnatural for Western countries. A clear example. Nobody is proud of following a law, as it is nothing less than expected and natural for any human living in society. In fact, many women are protesting against this outdated and antiquated law, taking to the streets with their hair uncovered as a form of indignation against the government. Not following a certain law, then, can be considered an act of pride and something deserving of credit, but it is rare and depends on the context. Following laws? Expected, normal, and definitely not a quality. I want to point out that it is very easy and comfortable to be on this side of the argument, defending the obvious, as it aligns with a rational and observable thought process. True. Trying to refute this is like trying to stop a train going 200km/h with your hand.
Not wrong - India and China were initially cited by you as examples of populous countries that can have some kind of success in sports. Don't you remember what you wrote? It's no fun, it seems like I'm debating with someone who gets lost in their own arguments and has amnesia. India with ...... 1.4 billion inhabitants!! and China with ...... 1.4 billion inhabitants! Coincidence that the two most populous countries in the world are here in this line of reasoning? No, we were specifically discussing that. Population capacity and its relationship to success in sports. There's nothing about "THEY SUPPORT and PLAY". You mentioned only 2 countries because they are definitely exceptions. Moreover, you can't say "look, this country is very good at this because it is very populous." Cricket itself is an exception in something that India is good at because there are countless other sports in which they are not good. Besides, India is an exception that only works for ONE specific sport. China is an exception as a COUNTRY. And yet, it is surpassed by less populous countries. Nonetheless, your argument is flawed because there is NO SCIENTIFIC STUDY that categorically proves that populous countries have greater guarantees of success. But there are scientific studies that prove what is necessary to succeed in sports, such as proper nutrition, adopted routine, training, good professionals working alongside the athlete, among others.
Narrating what you think is happening in this debate won't make that thought true. Saying "I refuted" - when you only give opinions that are immediately rebutted in the next post, doesn't change reality or make an argument valid. Literally, the majority of your responses were based on opinions, while I grounded mine with data, links, and articles. It's a fact. Just look at the beginning of the discussion. We're not even talking about topics that have already been properly clarified. Saying that "none of your opinions were personal" or saying that "I bring false arguments" doesn't have the power to alter reality, it just serves as a mental comfort for you to think you're right. But I understand you, it's like a defendant trying to prove in court that he didn't commit a crime (that he did), trying to deceive the jury with false arguments. He vainly tries to deceive himself, while everyone around him looks at him with that face of "dude, it doesn't matter what you say, we had witnesses at the scene, concrete evidence, and even security cameras."
yeah bro ur right and im wrong.. JUST KIDDING LMFAOOOOO ur wrong + braindead
book 1 wrong - u just went from sayin u wanted to know everyones opinion who cant support own country to idc about APAC. Nothing was apparent or obvious in ur arguments - it was region baiting and the fact that everyone called it out shows that u did not succeed. i know the reason behind it too - its the pent up anger after the whole world shat on BR for their crowd behavior and their comparison with EU crowd - so u made a thread basically saying "oh u dont know whats it like to support ur own country!!!1" -- yeh yeah yeah i know ur gonna say "u cannot know my intentions!!! where is the proof!! its ur personal belief" - this aint a fucking courthouse ya clown - there is proving and then there is knowing - everyone knows ur just baiting.
so am i falling for this bait by constantly replying to ur bullshit arguments? - nah honestly its an EMEA bait thread by a brazilian who is getting shat on - so its 2 birds at once for me so yes i am downnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn to keep replying LETS FUCKIN GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - ok im abit drink
book 2 - wtf was this? u just admitted to being wrong or something? reread my original post on the laws not being universal and then read ur bullshit - biggest contradiction ever.
book 3 - wrong i already told u can google for more examples i aint gonna sit here finding articles for rebuttals cause im not a lawyer getting paid by the hour. a simple google will tell u that - also since ur so big on understanding "clear" and implicit meaning behind everything - oh wait thats a privilege u only accord to ur own arguments and not others!! I have to be clear when i say EU - i cant just say idc about countries in EU which dont play football but u can use broad terms like EMEA - how dare i forget that... hmm but if u had a bit of shame - u would understand brazil, china and India have alot more than population in common which is why i picked up those countries' examples. You wouldnt admit to it but Europe is much more developed and wealthier than BR which is one of the major reasons why the "BEST" in EU is better than the BEST in BR in various terms in football - again idc about baseless links its just a fact which is proven by how the BEST in BR majorly go to the BEST in EU rather than staying and playing for the BEST in BR. This does NOT happen in Cricket in India - an example of how BR should focus to turn things around.
Narrating what you think is happening in this debate won't make that thought true. Saying "I refuted" - when you only give opinions that are immediately rebutted in the next post, doesn't change reality or make an argument valid - yh ill paste this here cause u saying something doesnt make it so either . bro is just cooking up stories in his mind - calling me a defendant.. if anything the accusations on 90% posts on this thread are on ur insincere and region baiting OP so who really is a defendant? you have written so many books trying to claim ur innocence but u havent sold 1 to anyone.
kskm [#225]yeah bro ur right and im wrong.. JUST KIDDING LMFAOOOOO ur wrong + braindead
book 1 wrong - u just went from sayin u wanted to know everyones opinion who cant support own country to idc about APAC. Nothing was apparent or obvious in ur arguments - it was region baiting and the fact that everyone called it out shows that u did not succeed. i know the reason behind it too - its the pent up anger after the whole world shat on BR for their crowd behavior and their comparison with EU crowd - so u made a thread basically saying "oh u dont know whats it like to support ur own country!!!1" -- yeh yeah yeah i know ur gonna say "u cannot know my intentions!!! where is the proof!! its ur personal belief" - this aint a fucking courthouse ya clown - there is proving and then there is knowing - everyone knows ur just baiting.
so am i falling for this bait by constantly replying to ur bullshit arguments? - nah honestly its an EMEA bait thread by a brazilian who is getting shat on - so its 2 birds at once for me so yes i am downnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn to keep replying LETS FUCKIN GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - ok im abit drink
book 2 - wtf was this? u just admitted to being wrong or something? reread my original post on the laws not being universal and then read ur bullshit - biggest contradiction ever.
book 3 - wrong i already told u can google for more examples i aint gonna sit here finding articles for rebuttals cause im not a lawyer getting paid by the hour. a simple google will tell u that - also since ur so big on understanding "clear" and implicit meaning behind everything - oh wait thats a privilege u only accord to ur own arguments and not others!! I have to be clear when i say EU - i cant just say idc about countries in EU which dont play football but u can use broad terms like EMEA - how dare i forget that... hmm but if u had a bit of shame - u would understand brazil, china and India have alot more than population in common which is why i picked up those countries' examples. You wouldnt admit to it but Europe is much more developed and wealthier than BR which is one of the major reasons why the "BEST" in EU is better than the BEST in BR in various terms in football - again idc about baseless links its just a fact which is proven by how the BEST in BR majorly go to the BEST in EU rather than staying and playing for the BEST in BR. This does NOT happen in Cricket in India - an example of how BR should focus to turn things around.
Narrating what you think is happening in this debate won't make that thought true. Saying "I refuted" - when you only give opinions that are immediately rebutted in the next post, doesn't change reality or make an argument valid - yh ill paste this here cause u saying something doesnt make it so either . bro is just cooking up stories in his mind - calling me a defendant.. if anything the accusations on 90% posts on this thread are on ur insincere and region baiting OP so who really is a defendant? you have written so many books trying to claim ur innocence but u havent sold 1 to anyone.
If you were right and I was wrong, I wouldn't have any problem admitting it. But in all your arguments, you didn't present any decent foundation, it was all based on "I think this, so it must be true". Fallacies, guesses, and heuristics. And I made a point of exposing, point by point, that you were wrong - through statistical data, studies, and links, where you could access them yourself and draw your own conclusions about whether what I was saying made sense or not.
Book 1 - Not wrong - If I wanted to know the opinion of people who support APAC teams, I would simply include them and say "EMEA and APAC COME". So no, your statement makes no sense. The intention of the post is not relevant and was never questioned in the debate, this is just your attempt to deflect the focus since you don't have many alternatives left and, I believe, everything was properly clarified. Not to mention that the content of "book 1" had nothing about my intention in creating the post, you just made that up now to build a line of reasoning completely outside of what we are arguing, what was refuted, etc. This shows that you are completely lost in your own opinions and in the heart of the matter.
I have no intention whatsoever of knowing about your personal life. When you're arguing, try not to give irrelevant and useless opinions, like the ones you gave about "being drunk" - literally no one cares, especially not a stranger on a Valorant forum. I'm not interested in your desires, as long as you continue to give opinions that have already been refuted and are clearly out of touch with reality, I will continue to show why you're wrong.
Book 2 - Not wrong - Yes, I read exactly what you wrote and your argument is based on a single premise: "laws are not universal, therefore, a behavior considered normal (prejudice, for example) in one place may not be in another." And for you, that is enough to conclude that not being prejudiced is praiseworthy because it is not universal. You are wrong because: We all live within the borders of some federal state. The absence of universal laws is exactly what makes you follow the laws OF YOUR COUNTRY. Your behavior is governed by these laws (do you see how it narrows down?). We arrive at the individual - you. Everything you do, WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE LEGISLATION OF YOUR COUNTRY, is considered normal, as long as it does not violate any law. You may have some judgment about these laws, but that does not change the fact that obeying them is expected by your family, friends, mayor, ruler, and president of your country. Therefore, it makes no sense for you to be applauded or for it to be considered an admirable attitude to not be prejudiced (a crime), because to act like that is to act outside of normality, to act in an unexpected way, and you will be punished. What determines what is normal or not are the laws OF YOUR COUNTRY, not others.
Book 3 - Not wrong - 1. If you're arguing, it's up to you to bring the data and foundation. Empty words are not concrete evidence of anything. "oh, it's on Google" - then search and show me. I want to see, read, and be convinced that you're right - which hasn't happened yet since we started debating. Again - EMEA is used in games and EU in football, and that's obvious. Have you ever seen someone trying to include a European football team in a matter related to EMEA? When we talk about Valorant, we mention EMEA, when it's not related to Valorant or any game - EU. There's nothing ambiguous about this point. A continent is richer and more developed than a country? Don't tell me! I'm surprised! When you want to make a comparison like this, cite country x country, state x state, city x city, continent x continent and not continent x country, which are two completely different things. There are European countries with a smaller GDP than the Brazilian state of Sao Paulo. You can pick a European country to prove your point and I'll pick another European country to prove mine. A discussion in this sense will not lead anywhere. Regarding football leagues, it has already been said that more than half of European leagues are bad and weak. You could have accessed the links and seen with your own eyes. 100% of Brazilian football players will not play in these leagues of countries with weak and non-traditional football leagues - which are the majority. Only 5 are chosen, a rarity among 50 countries.
- The cricket in India was exceptionally cited to prove your point that populous countries can succeed (as if there could be a relationship between population and success) and then you tried to correlate it with Brazil - another populous country. Here you already mention India to support another argument: that there is no export of cricket players to Europe, as if player export were something bad for the exporting country or meant something other than "The top 5 leagues pay enough to have players from around the world," and that includes your country. Additionally, football is the sport with the greatest media appeal in the world, watched on all continents and played like no other. The fame of cricket is sustained by the Indians themselves, in Brazil no one even knows what "cricket" means. It cannot be compared to the popularity of football, perhaps explaining why no one cares about cricket players and they are not exported.
The person who feels the need to keep saying that they refuted and were not refuted is you. So it's important for you to know that this won't make your arguments valid just because you want them to be or because you think they are. And I say this because everything indicates exactly the opposite: unfounded opinions, assumptions, fallacies, no data, no links, just empty words with no guarantee of truthfulness. I didn't say you were a defendant, it was a figure of speech and apparently you didn't understand: you are constantly trying to convince yourself and others that you are right, even though all the signals around you are sending an alert of "they know that what I'm saying is purely unfounded and possibly a lie". Just like in a trial. Figure of speech.
Astroman77 [#6]Good, so you admit that you root for a region, not for your country or for people who speak your language, right?
what do you expect? each country to have its own team of 5? if that was the case then EMEA would have been a dead region a long time ago
Astroman77 [#226]If you were right and I was wrong, I wouldn't have any problem admitting it. But in all your arguments, you didn't present any decent foundation, it was all based on "I think this, so it must be true". Fallacies, guesses, and heuristics. And I made a point of exposing, point by point, that you were wrong - through statistical data, studies, and links, where you could access them yourself and draw your own conclusions about whether what I was saying made sense or not.
Book 1 - Not wrong - If I wanted to know the opinion of people who support APAC teams, I would simply include them and say "EMEA and APAC COME". So no, your statement makes no sense. The intention of the post is not relevant and was never questioned in the debate, this is just your attempt to deflect the focus since you don't have many alternatives left and, I believe, everything was properly clarified. Not to mention that the content of "book 1" had nothing about my intention in creating the post, you just made that up now to build a line of reasoning completely outside of what we are arguing, what was refuted, etc. This shows that you are completely lost in your own opinions and in the heart of the matter.
I have no intention whatsoever of knowing about your personal life. When you're arguing, try not to give irrelevant and useless opinions, like the ones you gave about "being drunk" - literally no one cares, especially not a stranger on a Valorant forum. I'm not interested in your desires, as long as you continue to give opinions that have already been refuted and are clearly out of touch with reality, I will continue to show why you're wrong.
Book 2 - Not wrong - Yes, I read exactly what you wrote and your argument is based on a single premise: "laws are not universal, therefore, a behavior considered normal (prejudice, for example) in one place may not be in another." And for you, that is enough to conclude that not being prejudiced is praiseworthy because it is not universal. You are wrong because: We all live within the borders of some federal state. The absence of universal laws is exactly what makes you follow the laws OF YOUR COUNTRY. Your behavior is governed by these laws (do you see how it narrows down?). We arrive at the individual - you. Everything you do, WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE LEGISLATION OF YOUR COUNTRY, is considered normal, as long as it does not violate any law. You may have some judgment about these laws, but that does not change the fact that obeying them is expected by your family, friends, mayor, ruler, and president of your country. Therefore, it makes no sense for you to be applauded or for it to be considered an admirable attitude to not be prejudiced (a crime), because to act like that is to act outside of normality, to act in an unexpected way, and you will be punished. What determines what is normal or not are the laws OF YOUR COUNTRY, not others.
Book 3 - Not wrong - 1. If you're arguing, it's up to you to bring the data and foundation. Empty words are not concrete evidence of anything. "oh, it's on Google" - then search and show me. I want to see, read, and be convinced that you're right - which hasn't happened yet since we started debating. Again - EMEA is used in games and EU in football, and that's obvious. Have you ever seen someone trying to include a European football team in a matter related to EMEA? When we talk about Valorant, we mention EMEA, when it's not related to Valorant or any game - EU. There's nothing ambiguous about this point. A continent is richer and more developed than a country? Don't tell me! I'm surprised! When you want to make a comparison like this, cite country x country, state x state, city x city, continent x continent and not continent x country, which are two completely different things. There are European countries with a smaller GDP than the Brazilian state of Sao Paulo. You can pick a European country to prove your point and I'll pick another European country to prove mine. A discussion in this sense will not lead anywhere. Regarding football leagues, it has already been said that more than half of European leagues are bad and weak. You could have accessed the links and seen with your own eyes. 100% of Brazilian football players will not play in these leagues of countries with weak and non-traditional football leagues - which are the majority. Only 5 are chosen, a rarity among 50 countries.
- The cricket in India was exceptionally cited to prove your point that populous countries can succeed (as if there could be a relationship between population and success) and then you tried to correlate it with Brazil - another populous country. Here you already mention India to support another argument: that there is no export of cricket players to Europe, as if player export were something bad for the exporting country or meant something other than "The top 5 leagues pay enough to have players from around the world," and that includes your country. Additionally, football is the sport with the greatest media appeal in the world, watched on all continents and played like no other. The fame of cricket is sustained by the Indians themselves, in Brazil no one even knows what "cricket" means. It cannot be compared to the popularity of football, perhaps explaining why no one cares about cricket players and they are not exported.
The person who feels the need to keep saying that they refuted and were not refuted is you. So it's important for you to know that this won't make your arguments valid just because you want them to be or because you think they are. And I say this because everything indicates exactly the opposite: unfounded opinions, assumptions, fallacies, no data, no links, just empty words with no guarantee of truthfulness. I didn't say you were a defendant, it was a figure of speech and apparently you didn't understand: you are constantly trying to convince yourself and others that you are right, even though all the signals around you are sending an alert of "they know that what I'm saying is purely unfounded and possibly a lie". Just like in a trial. Figure of speech.
I have indeed presented decent arguments and stated facts all across my early posts, for which you have responded through false narratives, half cooked unresearched shit , shifting goalposts to drive absurd points.
The mere fact that the majority of the best football players in BR play for best in EU instead of staying back and playing for the best in BR refutes all stupid claims of BR clubs being stronger. The links you pasted to show these are unresearched articles and dont refute my claim at all. An actual rebuttal would include links of how the majority of the best football players who play for Brazil national team play in Br league - which is not true so there is no available rebuttal for this argument. This is enough to claim that best in EU is better than the best in BR. I went on to show how BR benefits from this arrangement but none of the proceeds are being used to challenge the status quo in football leagues - again that iffhs link does not refute this claim.
My introduction of cricket and olympics (again nobody cares if BR doesnt know about it or play it - the sports, music and art followed by countries depends on their cultural history and saying stupid stuff like "oh football is played more" makes no sense) shows how countries with population and a wealth divide have defeated and overcome countries with higher overall sports budgets. England for example won the last Cricket WC but most of the Englishmen play in India for their cricket league and NONE of the Indians play in England cricket leagues anymore (this was not the case before). There is a reason why Riot is trying to give China the 3 slots in Valorant majors - they see alot of growth potential and these countries have shown in the past that they can take charge when they start supporting a sport/esport. Brazil has similar problems related to poverty and an advantage in population when compared to wealthier European countries but has failed to challenge the status quo in football leagues for so long. Matter of fact, countries with no history in Football from the Middle East are doing more in signing relevant players. ------------- I know what your stupid ass rebuttals are going for everything here, you will nitpick stupid shit like a nerd and point oUT how I purposely generalized stuff like "HOW CAN U NOT MENTION VATICAN CITY WHEN U TALK ABOUT EU" when to any layman it is understood that if someone is talking about EU clubs they dont mean each and everyone of them. On the contrary your stupid and region baiting OP has generalized statements - it does not mention u exclude BBL, FUT etc in valorant, niether does it specify that oh there must be 3 or more players for u to be able to call it a "national" team to cheer for it -- u included those information and called it "its obvious xDDDD" after u were called out on it. In the same spirt i could also say that I was obviously mentioning only the rich EU clubs - there is no rule as to what can be generalized and what cannot be ---- here you are just twisting the rules to suit urself without making any sense at all.
I have already mentioned clearly that laws are not universal and also mentioned how historically not acting in a discriminatory way towards people was neither a law nor an expected behavior and gave several examples of states which actively to this day discriminate on the basis of nationality, race, religion and dont let players from diverse backgrounds to play in their leagues/sports or even in their music and art industry. Some of these are advanced nations with a constitution and a democracy, not just psycho states with dictators. So your entire point of people acting according to their laws is not appreciable is not a rebuttal at all as people within that state are not held to the same enforcement of the law as the state itself or the influential people in that state. AGAIN - the best clubs in europe CAN AND WILL act in discriminatory fashion towards Brazilian footballers if they wish to and they will not be answerable to anyone - the fact that they dont is not bound of the law of their or anyone's state so NO they are not just respecting their law but rather being nice and benevelont and there is nothing wrong with appreciating that in today's world filled with psycho jingoists like u.
There are tons of other arguments which u brought into this shit like BR apparently not being a protectionist state and then somehow tried to correct it by saying "oh no i did mean this, i meant that - its so obvious!! again most ur arguments are just that - when u say something there is implicit meaning behind it which is obvios but im not allowed to freely use terminology. You are making up things, its like ur acting like a judge in this whole thing which is why everyone feels like a defendant to you - but for me and most people in this thread ur the defendent and the downvotes show that. i am free to share whatever information i like whether its about me being drunk or w.e - its not a fucking courtroom its vlr.gg and i dont need to repeat myself several times if u miss the point or have difficulty in reading comprehension - thats ur problem not mine so i will be copy pasting my replies to show u have not answered or refuted anything
kskm [#228]I have indeed presented decent arguments and stated facts all across my early posts, for which you have responded through false narratives, half cooked unresearched shit , shifting goalposts to drive absurd points.
The mere fact that the majority of the best football players in BR play for best in EU instead of staying back and playing for the best in BR refutes all stupid claims of BR clubs being stronger. The links you pasted to show these are unresearched articles and dont refute my claim at all. An actual rebuttal would include links of how the majority of the best football players who play for Brazil national team play in Br league - which is not true so there is no available rebuttal for this argument. This is enough to claim that best in EU is better than the best in BR. I went on to show how BR benefits from this arrangement but none of the proceeds are being used to challenge the status quo in football leagues - again that iffhs link does not refute this claim.
My introduction of cricket and olympics (again nobody cares if BR doesnt know about it or play it - the sports, music and art followed by countries depends on their cultural history and saying stupid stuff like "oh football is played more" makes no sense) shows how countries with population and a wealth divide have defeated and overcome countries with higher overall sports budgets. England for example won the last Cricket WC but most of the Englishmen play in India for their cricket league and NONE of the Indians play in England cricket leagues anymore (this was not the case before). There is a reason why Riot is trying to give China the 3 slots in Valorant majors - they see alot of growth potential and these countries have shown in the past that they can take charge when they start supporting a sport/esport. Brazil has similar problems related to poverty and an advantage in population when compared to wealthier European countries but has failed to challenge the status quo in football leagues for so long. Matter of fact, countries with no history in Football from the Middle East are doing more in signing relevant players. ------------- I know what your stupid ass rebuttals are going for everything here, you will nitpick stupid shit like a nerd and point oUT how I purposely generalized stuff like "HOW CAN U NOT MENTION VATICAN CITY WHEN U TALK ABOUT EU" when to any layman it is understood that if someone is talking about EU clubs they dont mean each and everyone of them. On the contrary your stupid and region baiting OP has generalized statements - it does not mention u exclude BBL, FUT etc in valorant, niether does it specify that oh there must be 3 or more players for u to be able to call it a "national" team to cheer for it -- u included those information and called it "its obvious xDDDD" after u were called out on it. In the same spirt i could also say that I was obviously mentioning only the rich EU clubs - there is no rule as to what can be generalized and what cannot be ---- here you are just twisting the rules to suit urself without making any sense at all.
I have already mentioned clearly that laws are not universal and also mentioned how historically not acting in a discriminatory way towards people was neither a law nor an expected behavior and gave several examples of states which actively to this day discriminate on the basis of nationality, race, religion and dont let players from diverse backgrounds to play in their leagues/sports or even in their music and art industry. Some of these are advanced nations with a constitution and a democracy, not just psycho states with dictators. So your entire point of people acting according to their laws is not appreciable is not a rebuttal at all as people within that state are not held to the same enforcement of the law as the state itself or the influential people in that state. AGAIN - the best clubs in europe CAN AND WILL act in discriminatory fashion towards Brazilian footballers if they wish to and they will not be answerable to anyone - the fact that they dont is not bound of the law of their or anyone's state so NO they are not just respecting their law but rather being nice and benevelont and there is nothing wrong with appreciating that in today's world filled with psycho jingoists like u.
There are tons of other arguments which u brought into this shit like BR apparently not being a protectionist state and then somehow tried to correct it by saying "oh no i did mean this, i meant that - its so obvious!! again most ur arguments are just that - when u say something there is implicit meaning behind it which is obvios but im not allowed to freely use terminology. You are making up things, its like ur acting like a judge in this whole thing which is why everyone feels like a defendant to you - but for me and most people in this thread ur the defendent and the downvotes show that. i am free to share whatever information i like whether its about me being drunk or w.e - its not a fucking courtroom its vlr.gg and i dont need to repeat myself several times if u miss the point or have difficulty in reading comprehension - thats ur problem not mine so i will be copy pasting my replies to show u have not answered or refuted anything
No, you haven't presented any decent arguments in any of your posts, just read what you type, there's no enlightening or new information, no foundation, nothing but "I think this, so it must be this". The best football players playing in Europe doesn't refute "my claim that Brazilian clubs are stronger", because the only way we can know the strength of Brazilian football compared to European football is by putting the respective best teams from each region in competition. This already happens, as you should know. Brazil has won the Club World Cup 10 times against several European giants, only behind Spain, which has 12 and carries European football in this regard. If you want to know the strongest league, which is also the Brazilian league, just search for a research and statistics institute that does the work for you and eliminates any and all guesswork and fallacies. And the IFFHS, recognized by FIFA, is the ideal name. Having the best players is different from being the best team. You are confusing the two.
One of the links I sent is a SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH based on NUMBERS that proves how Europe benefits from hiring talented foreigners, since the crop of national players wouldn't be enough to compete with teams that constantly hire talents from other continents. Not only that, in addition to increasing the team's level and increasing the competitiveness of the league in general, they also gain more audience and fans, which generates higher income with broadcasting rights (with new viewers joining), guarantee a always full stadium (due to the greater appreciation and prestige gained), making the "home of the club" self-sustainable, not to mention the increase in revenue from the increase in shirt sales. Among several other things. It was just a matter of reading instead of saying "it didn't refute me" - when that's exactly what happened. The profit is used within the league itself, not to "challenge the status quo" - you clearly don't understand the subject. CLEARLY. The Brazilian League is the most valuable among 45 European leagues and the strongest in the world. The Brazilian League is managed by CBF (the highest entity), which in turn has 5 World Cups. The money is very well invested. The 5 strongest leagues in the world have money to hire the best, and that's why they get the spotlight, which doesn't necessarily mean they have the strongest league or team.
Even if Indians played cricket in England, it wouldn't mean anything other than "England has money to buy the best Indian cricket players." Exporting/importing players is not a parameter to measure the strength of a league, team, or sport within a region/country. Even if you manage to gather the best players, it's not a guarantee that you will have the best team. Strength is determined by a series of factors. A motivated average player is much better for your team than a theoretically better, unmotivated player. "shows how countries with population and a wealth divide have defeated and overcome countries with higher overall sports budgets" - Yes, that's why Brazil is the biggest football country and the only one with 5 World Cups. Again talking about "challenging the status quo," as if that were the goal of any league or country. Brazil doesn't need to do anything other than "maintain its own status quo" and continue to be the protagonist of world football. Here you show again that you didn't understand a simple question: "what is it like to support a team with 5 foreign players?". It's a matter of interpretation that is not necessary when we mention the EU. "EUROPE" implies all its countries. A team with 5 foreigners implies only teams with 5 foreigners (my god, isn't that obvious?). You cannot say that you were only referring to rich clubs when referring to Europe because it's a generic statement, my statement is SPECIFIC -> "what is it like to support a team with 5 foreign players?".
You just repeated a refuted argument from the previous post. All you're saying is basically, "laws are universal, it wasn't a law in the past, there are states that do the opposite," and I already responded to all of that. I'll try to be as didactic as possible so you can realize that you're wrong: You follow the laws, right? I hope so. Each country has its own legislation. In each region, what is normal/abnormal will be defined through its culture and customs and is reflected in laws (which are not universal and that's why we'll talk about your country). Do you feel special for not stealing? I hope not because the state says that this is a crime (not being a criminal is expected. Presumption of innocence). Is discrimination punishable or not? Well, if you live in the USA, it is a punishable crime. There you go. We already have one of several limits created by the state, in fact, 2 (theft and discrimination) that society has established an exception, an unnatural path that you should not follow. If you step out of line from what is expected, you will be arrested. You mention a club as an example, but the company is not punished, no company is punished, only the person, so your example is horrible. Loud will not be penalized for discriminating against Frod or Saadhak because it is a company. The individual who committed the crime in the name of the company is held responsible if something happens. The state can discriminate as much as it wants, but it cannot punish a state - only those who act on its behalf. I thought you knew these basic concepts.
I actually said: Brazil is not completely protectionist, just go back to the post where I first mentioned it and you'll see. And that implies that Brazil is not completely protectionist, obviously. There's nothing wrong with me defending myself when you say that I said "Brazil is not a protectionist country". Those are different phrases that evoke different meanings. "Not completely" is different from "not". You can use terminology freely, but you can't change the meaning according to what you want to believe. You can't use something generic and expect it to mean something specific.
Nationalism is weak, you place your value and pride into something created by humans, something that has no value something that cannot benefit you in any way except to hate/love just because you were born in a certain place. That place you were born in you did not choose. You did not choose Brazil just like someone from America didn’t choose America. You didn’t not choose poverty or wealth just like you did not choose a war torn land over a prosperous land. It’s prideful to associate yourself with that, weak and makes you hard hearted. It’s weak minded and obtuse to assume something about someone based off of their appearance. Yes, some cultures are inherently better than others, if they benefit, instead of being delusional and continuing something based off of pride and for the sake of continuing something. It’s like nationalism is all you have. (Culture that is good :food, clothing, anything that doesn’t divide us humans based off of certain customs.)
Race is a social construct, yes, it only divides and creates animosity, we have different face shapes, features, that are all used to differentiate and identify, not to place more or less value, except to create communities and segregate us. But choosing to desegregate is also not inherently bad, except that you may feel like an outsider, so having your own people is good, you feel apart of something, but the moment you hate and discriminate based only of color, and ethnicity, is the moment you have become ignorant prideful, and arrogant. You should discriminate , Yes!, but only based off of morals, good character, and trustworthiness, based off of religious piety (how much he fears God, this does not apply if you are atheist and polytheist, but you will see a difference between the one who is pious and not.)
Do not place value on something that can give you nothing in return, nationalism is evil, ignorant and prideful, if you use nationalism to base your morals, your whole opinion, your happiness and contentment, it’s like you worship it. Don’t be weak.
Astroman77 [#229]No, you haven't presented any decent arguments in any of your posts, just read what you type, there's no enlightening or new information, no foundation, nothing but "I think this, so it must be this". The best football players playing in Europe doesn't refute "my claim that Brazilian clubs are stronger", because the only way we can know the strength of Brazilian football compared to European football is by putting the respective best teams from each region in competition. This already happens, as you should know. Brazil has won the Club World Cup 10 times against several European giants, only behind Spain, which has 12 and carries European football in this regard. If you want to know the strongest league, which is also the Brazilian league, just search for a research and statistics institute that does the work for you and eliminates any and all guesswork and fallacies. And the IFFHS, recognized by FIFA, is the ideal name. Having the best players is different from being the best team. You are confusing the two.
One of the links I sent is a SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH based on NUMBERS that proves how Europe benefits from hiring talented foreigners, since the crop of national players wouldn't be enough to compete with teams that constantly hire talents from other continents. Not only that, in addition to increasing the team's level and increasing the competitiveness of the league in general, they also gain more audience and fans, which generates higher income with broadcasting rights (with new viewers joining), guarantee a always full stadium (due to the greater appreciation and prestige gained), making the "home of the club" self-sustainable, not to mention the increase in revenue from the increase in shirt sales. Among several other things. It was just a matter of reading instead of saying "it didn't refute me" - when that's exactly what happened. The profit is used within the league itself, not to "challenge the status quo" - you clearly don't understand the subject. CLEARLY. The Brazilian League is the most valuable among 45 European leagues and the strongest in the world. The Brazilian League is managed by CBF (the highest entity), which in turn has 5 World Cups. The money is very well invested. The 5 strongest leagues in the world have money to hire the best, and that's why they get the spotlight, which doesn't necessarily mean they have the strongest league or team.
Even if Indians played cricket in England, it wouldn't mean anything other than "England has money to buy the best Indian cricket players." Exporting/importing players is not a parameter to measure the strength of a league, team, or sport within a region/country. Even if you manage to gather the best players, it's not a guarantee that you will have the best team. Strength is determined by a series of factors. A motivated average player is much better for your team than a theoretically better, unmotivated player. "shows how countries with population and a wealth divide have defeated and overcome countries with higher overall sports budgets" - Yes, that's why Brazil is the biggest football country and the only one with 5 World Cups. Again talking about "challenging the status quo," as if that were the goal of any league or country. Brazil doesn't need to do anything other than "maintain its own status quo" and continue to be the protagonist of world football. Here you show again that you didn't understand a simple question: "what is it like to support a team with 5 foreign players?". It's a matter of interpretation that is not necessary when we mention the EU. "EUROPE" implies all its countries. A team with 5 foreigners implies only teams with 5 foreigners (my god, isn't that obvious?). You cannot say that you were only referring to rich clubs when referring to Europe because it's a generic statement, my statement is SPECIFIC -> "what is it like to support a team with 5 foreign players?".
You just repeated a refuted argument from the previous post. All you're saying is basically, "laws are universal, it wasn't a law in the past, there are states that do the opposite," and I already responded to all of that. I'll try to be as didactic as possible so you can realize that you're wrong: You follow the laws, right? I hope so. Each country has its own legislation. In each region, what is normal/abnormal will be defined through its culture and customs and is reflected in laws (which are not universal and that's why we'll talk about your country). Do you feel special for not stealing? I hope not because the state says that this is a crime (not being a criminal is expected. Presumption of innocence). Is discrimination punishable or not? Well, if you live in the USA, it is a punishable crime. There you go. We already have one of several limits created by the state, in fact, 2 (theft and discrimination) that society has established an exception, an unnatural path that you should not follow. If you step out of line from what is expected, you will be arrested. You mention a club as an example, but the company is not punished, no company is punished, only the person, so your example is horrible. Loud will not be penalized for discriminating against Frod or Saadhak because it is a company. The individual who committed the crime in the name of the company is held responsible if something happens. The state can discriminate as much as it wants, but it cannot punish a state - only those who act on its behalf. I thought you knew these basic concepts.
I actually said: Brazil is not completely protectionist, just go back to the post where I first mentioned it and you'll see. And that implies that Brazil is not completely protectionist, obviously. There's nothing wrong with me defending myself when you say that I said "Brazil is not a protectionist country". Those are different phrases that evoke different meanings. "Not completely" is different from "not". You can use terminology freely, but you can't change the meaning according to what you want to believe. You can't use something generic and expect it to mean something specific.
first 3 books - wrong - doesnt refute anything especially the fact that the BEST in BR go to play in BEST in EU when it comes to football but the BEST in EU go to play in the BEST in INDIA when it comes to Cricket. Confuses the concept of national teams and leagues to somehow drive an absurd point. You saying something has been refuted by pasting a few definitions doesnt refute anything at all.
book 4 - wrong - provides stupid examples of stealing and murdering and completely misses the entire point of how BEST EU clubs can and will discriminate on the basis of nationality, race, religion if they wish to and there is nobody who can hold them accountable - already provided enough examples of how this has happened throughout the history, happens in DEMOCRATIC countries in the present, and infact continues to happen quite noticeably in smaller EU football clubs to this date. There is no law protecting the victims here - a better (although foolish because u are incapable of understanding nuanced arguments ) example would be if in Brazil it was easy to shoplift and not be caught and it was only ur integrity which would be questioned - how many people would get away with it? Similarly cases of discrimination are not obvious like murdering people or even stealing/looting in the daylight - those examples dont justify how DIFFERENT laws and enforced DIFFERENTLY in DIFFERENT countries - some states ACTIVELY discriminate people on various grounds. SO not discriminating people is NOT bound by LAW - and it is appreciable if people are inclusive. If this doesnt get inside ur thick skull please get an adult to reread so that u can understand,
yeah yeah yeah as i said everything u say has implicit meaning which carries clear meaning... u built a whole fucking book saying how BR is not "completely" protectionist thats why u enjoy several options to buy several goods and services which is not correct at all. if u just google u will find 10000 links of how BR is protectionist and it is indeed the lack of local options which makes a country open up to international trade - again this is not something which is wrong but natural in the interconnected world we live in and being jingoistic about it is just foolish.
kskm [#231]first 3 books - wrong - doesnt refute anything especially the fact that the BEST in BR go to play in BEST in EU when it comes to football but the BEST in EU go to play in the BEST in INDIA when it comes to Cricket. Confuses the concept of national teams and leagues to somehow drive an absurd point. You saying something has been refuted by pasting a few definitions doesnt refute anything at all.
book 4 - wrong - provides stupid examples of stealing and murdering and completely misses the entire point of how BEST EU clubs can and will discriminate on the basis of nationality, race, religion if they wish to and there is nobody who can hold them accountable - already provided enough examples of how this has happened throughout the history, happens in DEMOCRATIC countries in the present, and infact continues to happen quite noticeably in smaller EU football clubs to this date. There is no law protecting the victims here - a better (although foolish because u are incapable of understanding nuanced arguments ) example would be if in Brazil it was easy to shoplift and not be caught and it was only ur integrity which would be questioned - how many people would get away with it? Similarly cases of discrimination are not obvious like murdering people or even stealing/looting in the daylight - those examples dont justify how DIFFERENT laws and enforced DIFFERENTLY in DIFFERENT countries - some states ACTIVELY discriminate people on various grounds. SO not discriminating people is NOT bound by LAW - and it is appreciable if people are inclusive. If this doesnt get inside ur thick skull please get an adult to reread so that u can understand,
yeah yeah yeah as i said everything u say has implicit meaning which carries clear meaning... u built a whole fucking book saying how BR is not "completely" protectionist thats why u enjoy several options to buy several goods and services which is not correct at all. if u just google u will find 10000 links of how BR is protectionist and it is indeed the lack of local options which makes a country open up to international trade - again this is not something which is wrong but natural in the interconnected world we live in and being jingoistic about it is just foolish.
First 3 books - Not wrong - Again: The fact that the best players from Brazil play for the best teams in Europe means nothing more than "they have enough money and do their best to have the best players from Brazil and the world." That is the only concrete conclusion you can reach with that premise. THE ONLY ONE. If you could conclude that because of this "they have the strongest team," it would not be necessary to have the Club World Cup every year. The trophy would go directly to some European team - the one that won the Champions League, without a world championship competition. Which doesn't happen. There is a competition precisely to give us an idea of which continent currently has the strongest team. Comparing football to cricket in terms of exports/imports is completely unrealistic. Cricket would have to be as famous as football and watched enough in Europe for the hiring of Indians to be profitable and yield positive results. The media appeal of cricket is much lower than football, there is no comparison. And this directly impacts the transfer market.
Book 4 - Not wrong - Again, you confuse company/institution/club with individual. Companies can discriminate and will not be punished, it's impossible to apply a 2-year prison sentence to a COMPANY/CLUB!!! The Brazilian football could take an action and fire all foreigners and absolutely nothing would happen, as the club/company/federal state does not respond to the Penal Code! In order for a person to be considered prejudiced, it's necessary to prove the prejudiced character of the attitude and then conclude that they actually discriminated. If proven, this person will be held accountable in States where this is prohibited. It's simple. And if it's prohibited, it's because it's expected that you don't engage in such behavior and act normally, respecting what's expected of anyone who lives in the same country as you. The fact that cases are not obvious does not change the fact that not acting like a criminal (what is a criminal? Someone who commits a crime. What is a crime? An attitude or action prohibited by law) is expected of anyone and no one deserves credit for that. In Rio de Janeiro, not stealing is not a virtue, it's just what's expected of a civilized person who obeys the laws of their State. Everyone should be treated as innocent, being innocent is not a virtue. It's what's expected. SO not discriminating people is NOT bound by LAW - Not discriminating is entirely linked to the law. From the moment it is established that discrimination is wrong, when you don't discriminate, you are complying with the law and acting as expected. In the past, slavery was considered normal and accepted in society, but nowadays it is not. When you don't enslave someone - something that people used to do in the past, you are simply acting within what is expected of any person where slavery is prohibited. You are not virtuous or deserving of applause for this. Keeping up with societal changes is not a virtue, it is expected.
Having a thousand examples of how Brazil is protectionist does not make my initial statement of "Brazil is not completely protectionist" wrong. On the contrary, it supports what I said. If it's not completely protectionist, then it means that it adopts both protectionist and non-protectionist measures. It's a matter of interpretation. The lack of local options is not what makes a country open up to international trade. That's wrong. Countries do that to boost their economy, promote development, and attract foreign investment.
Astroman77 [#232]First 3 books - Not wrong - Again: The fact that the best players from Brazil play for the best teams in Europe means nothing more than "they have enough money and do their best to have the best players from Brazil and the world." That is the only concrete conclusion you can reach with that premise. THE ONLY ONE. If you could conclude that because of this "they have the strongest team," it would not be necessary to have the Club World Cup every year. The trophy would go directly to some European team - the one that won the Champions League, without a world championship competition. Which doesn't happen. There is a competition precisely to give us an idea of which continent currently has the strongest team. Comparing football to cricket in terms of exports/imports is completely unrealistic. Cricket would have to be as famous as football and watched enough in Europe for the hiring of Indians to be profitable and yield positive results. The media appeal of cricket is much lower than football, there is no comparison. And this directly impacts the transfer market.
Book 4 - Not wrong - Again, you confuse company/institution/club with individual. Companies can discriminate and will not be punished, it's impossible to apply a 2-year prison sentence to a COMPANY/CLUB!!! The Brazilian football could take an action and fire all foreigners and absolutely nothing would happen, as the club/company/federal state does not respond to the Penal Code! In order for a person to be considered prejudiced, it's necessary to prove the prejudiced character of the attitude and then conclude that they actually discriminated. If proven, this person will be held accountable in States where this is prohibited. It's simple. And if it's prohibited, it's because it's expected that you don't engage in such behavior and act normally, respecting what's expected of anyone who lives in the same country as you. The fact that cases are not obvious does not change the fact that not acting like a criminal (what is a criminal? Someone who commits a crime. What is a crime? An attitude or action prohibited by law) is expected of anyone and no one deserves credit for that. In Rio de Janeiro, not stealing is not a virtue, it's just what's expected of a civilized person who obeys the laws of their State. Everyone should be treated as innocent, being innocent is not a virtue. It's what's expected. SO not discriminating people is NOT bound by LAW - Not discriminating is entirely linked to the law. From the moment it is established that discrimination is wrong, when you don't discriminate, you are complying with the law and acting as expected. In the past, slavery was considered normal and accepted in society, but nowadays it is not. When you don't enslave someone - something that people used to do in the past, you are simply acting within what is expected of any person where slavery is prohibited. You are not virtuous or deserving of applause for this. Keeping up with societal changes is not a virtue, it is expected.
Having a thousand examples of how Brazil is protectionist does not make my initial statement of "Brazil is not completely protectionist" wrong. On the contrary, it supports what I said. If it's not completely protectionist, then it means that it adopts both protectionist and non-protectionist measures. It's a matter of interpretation. The lack of local options is not what makes a country open up to international trade. That's wrong. Countries do that to boost their economy, promote development, and attract foreign investment.
No rebuttals or refutals have been provided again proving I am right and you are not. Considering no new information but useless definitions, baseless and unresearched links, shifting of goalposts and inaccurate conclusions to drive a false narrative are all you have without directly refuting anything I've mentioned. I will respond for the last time - let it be known just because I am not continuously responding it does not mean you have refuted anything. If you wish to continue on this path you can just copy past the below arguments for the rest of the thread and reply to it yourself.
first 3 books - wrong - doesnt refute anything especially the fact that the BEST in BR go to play in BEST in EU when it comes to football but the BEST in EU go to play in the BEST in INDIA when it comes to Cricket. Confuses the concept of national teams and leagues to somehow drive an absurd point. You saying something has been refuted by pasting a few definitions doesnt refute anything at all.
book 4 - wrong - provides stupid examples of stealing and murdering and completely misses the entire point of how BEST EU clubs can and will discriminate on the basis of nationality, race, religion if they wish to and there is nobody who can hold them accountable - already provided enough examples of how this has happened throughout the history, happens in DEMOCRATIC countries in the present, and infact continues to happen quite noticeably in smaller EU football clubs to this date. There is no law protecting the victims here - a better (although foolish because u are incapable of understanding nuanced arguments ) example would be if in Brazil it was easy to shoplift and not be caught and it was only ur integrity which would be questioned - how many people would get away with it? Similarly cases of discrimination are not obvious like murdering people or even stealing/looting in the daylight - those examples dont justify how DIFFERENT laws and enforced DIFFERENTLY in DIFFERENT countries - some states ACTIVELY discriminate people on various grounds. SO not discriminating people is NOT bound by LAW - and it is appreciable if people are inclusive. If this doesnt get inside ur thick skull please get an adult to reread so that u can understand,
yeah yeah yeah as i said everything u say has implicit meaning which carries clear meaning... u built a whole fucking book saying how BR is not "completely" protectionist thats why u enjoy several options to buy several goods and services which is not correct at all. if u just google u will find 10000 links of how BR is protectionist and it is indeed the lack of local options which makes a country open up to international trade - again this is not something which is wrong but natural in the interconnected world we live in and being jingoistic about it is just foolish.
kskm [#233]No rebuttals or refutals have been provided again proving I am right and you are not. Considering no new information but useless definitions, baseless and unresearched links, shifting of goalposts and inaccurate conclusions to drive a false narrative are all you have without directly refuting anything I've mentioned. I will respond for the last time - let it be known just because I am not continuously responding it does not mean you have refuted anything. If you wish to continue on this path you can just copy past the below arguments for the rest of the thread and reply to it yourself.
first 3 books - wrong - doesnt refute anything especially the fact that the BEST in BR go to play in BEST in EU when it comes to football but the BEST in EU go to play in the BEST in INDIA when it comes to Cricket. Confuses the concept of national teams and leagues to somehow drive an absurd point. You saying something has been refuted by pasting a few definitions doesnt refute anything at all.
book 4 - wrong - provides stupid examples of stealing and murdering and completely misses the entire point of how BEST EU clubs can and will discriminate on the basis of nationality, race, religion if they wish to and there is nobody who can hold them accountable - already provided enough examples of how this has happened throughout the history, happens in DEMOCRATIC countries in the present, and infact continues to happen quite noticeably in smaller EU football clubs to this date. There is no law protecting the victims here - a better (although foolish because u are incapable of understanding nuanced arguments ) example would be if in Brazil it was easy to shoplift and not be caught and it was only ur integrity which would be questioned - how many people would get away with it? Similarly cases of discrimination are not obvious like murdering people or even stealing/looting in the daylight - those examples dont justify how DIFFERENT laws and enforced DIFFERENTLY in DIFFERENT countries - some states ACTIVELY discriminate people on various grounds. SO not discriminating people is NOT bound by LAW - and it is appreciable if people are inclusive. If this doesnt get inside ur thick skull please get an adult to reread so that u can understand,
yeah yeah yeah as i said everything u say has implicit meaning which carries clear meaning... u built a whole fucking book saying how BR is not "completely" protectionist thats why u enjoy several options to buy several goods and services which is not correct at all. if u just google u will find 10000 links of how BR is protectionist and it is indeed the lack of local options which makes a country open up to international trade - again this is not something which is wrong but natural in the interconnected world we live in and being jingoistic about it is just foolish.
The only one not presenting any new information is you, and the only one in this discussion not providing any justification to support your conclusions is yourself. Everything is based on assumptions and personal opinions, and that does not serve as a parameter in any minimally intelligent debate. No data, no research, no links, just empty words and arguments that ANYONE in this forum could give. I will respond as many times as necessary. What you think about refuting or not refuting does not change the reality of the facts. Assumptions and fallacies within a discussion, without any concrete basis to support the truth of the information, have the same weight as a feather. You are only right in one place -> in your mind. Only in it can you think that you can counter-argue without presenting any scientifically proven facts.
Fisrt 3 books - Not wrong - As previously mentioned, the fact that the best players from Brazil play in Europe is not useful information to support any argument. It only leads us to one conclusion: "Europe has enough money to convince the world's best players to play in their leagues." Anything beyond that, derived from this argument, is pure fallacy and speculation. The fact that the best players from Europe go to play in India also only leads us to one conclusion: "India has enough money to convince the best cricket players to play in their leagues."
Book 4 - Not wrong - This copy and paste of yours has been properly clarified and refuted in the previous post, it's just that you are not being lazy and read the counterargument. Again, you confuse company/institution/club with individual. Companies can discriminate and will not be punished, it's impossible to apply a 2-year prison sentence to a COMPANY/CLUB!!! The Brazilian football could take an action and fire all foreigners and absolutely nothing would happen, as the club/company/federal state does not respond to the Penal Code! In order for a person to be considered prejudiced, it's necessary to prove the prejudiced character of the attitude and then conclude that they actually discriminated. If proven, this person will be held accountable in States where this is prohibited. It's simple. And if it's prohibited, it's because it's expected that you don't engage in such behavior and act normally, respecting what's expected of anyone who lives in the same country as you. The fact that cases are not obvious does not change the fact that not acting like a criminal (what is a criminal? Someone who commits a crime. What is a crime? An attitude or action prohibited by law) is expected of anyone and no one deserves credit for that. In Rio de Janeiro, not stealing is not a virtue, it's just what's expected of a civilized person who obeys the laws of their State. Everyone should be treated as innocent, being innocent is not a virtue. It's what's expected. SO not discriminating people is NOT bound by LAW - Not discriminating is entirely linked to the law. From the moment it is established that discrimination is wrong, when you don't discriminate, you are complying with the law and acting as expected. In the past, slavery was considered normal and accepted in society, but nowadays it is not. When you don't enslave someone - something that people used to do in the past, you are simply acting within what is expected of any person where slavery is prohibited. You are not virtuous or deserving of applause for this. Keeping up with societal changes is not a virtue, it is expected. It takes no less than 1 minute to read and understand why you are wrong about this thought.
You are just demonstrating to be lazy by not reading my refutation. I attacked the main points, and all you do is copy and paste as if I hadn't already responded to these ideas based on opinions and fallacies. Again: Having a thousand examples of how Brazil is protectionist does not make my initial statement of "Brazil is not completely protectionist" wrong. On the contrary, it supports what I said. If it's not completely protectionist, then it means that it adopts both protectionist and non-protectionist measures. It's a matter of interpretation. The lack of local options is not what makes a country open up to international trade. That's wrong. Countries do that to boost their economy, promote development, and attract foreign investment.
h786 [#230]Nationalism is weak, you place your value and pride into something created by humans, something that has no value something that cannot benefit you in any way except to hate/love just because you were born in a certain place. That place you were born in you did not choose. You did not choose Brazil just like someone from America didn’t choose America. You didn’t not choose poverty or wealth just like you did not choose a war torn land over a prosperous land. It’s prideful to associate yourself with that, weak and makes you hard hearted. It’s weak minded and obtuse to assume something about someone based off of their appearance. Yes, some cultures are inherently better than others, if they benefit, instead of being delusional and continuing something based off of pride and for the sake of continuing something. It’s like nationalism is all you have. (Culture that is good :food, clothing, anything that doesn’t divide us humans based off of certain customs.)
Race is a social construct, yes, it only divides and creates animosity, we have different face shapes, features, that are all used to differentiate and identify, not to place more or less value, except to create communities and segregate us. But choosing to desegregate is also not inherently bad, except that you may feel like an outsider, so having your own people is good, you feel apart of something, but the moment you hate and discriminate based only of color, and ethnicity, is the moment you have become ignorant prideful, and arrogant. You should discriminate , Yes!, but only based off of morals, good character, and trustworthiness, based off of religious piety (how much he fears God, this does not apply if you are atheist and polytheist, but you will see a difference between the one who is pious and not.)
Do not place value on something that can give you nothing in return, nationalism is evil, ignorant and prideful, if you use nationalism to base your morals, your whole opinion, your happiness and contentment, it’s like you worship it. Don’t be weak.
Cheering for teams with players from the same country creates a sense of community and identity among fans, which makes the experience exciting in itself. People come together around a common goal, which can increase the sense of belonging and unity. It's fun to cheer for a team that represents your culture and traditions, with players that you can identify with and share values through the same language. There is a sense of responsibility and pride, which may not exist in other cases (such as the one mentioned in my question). There's nothing wrong with these feelings and experiences described above. It has nothing to do with nationalism, which is a political ideology. It's a feeling that we can, perhaps, correlate with patriotism. Brazil is a multiracial country, just like the origin of the players who represent Loud/FURIA/Mibr, which is already a clear evidence that Brazilian fans rooting for Brazilian teams has nothing to do with race/ethnicity, as you suggested. My point is: rooting for teams with players who have no connection to you (as a fan) MAY (that's why I asked) make the experience less engaging and exciting because there is no social identity relationship that can be observed in teams with opposite characteristics, making everything much less thrilling. You have confused nationalism (an ideology) with nationality (the condition or status of belonging to a certain region). You can have Brazilian nationality because you were born in Brazil and not be a nationalist - someone who values and promotes national identity, as well as the sovereignty and independence of the State in relation to other countries.
Astroman77 [#57]For Europe, it's impossible to be about countries. It's not like you have choices. Lol.
So explain this
FNATIC
British Player
Turkish Player
Finnish Player
Swedish Player
Russian Player
FNATIC is a British Org
Who should support these?
Your point only makes sense if the whole team is from one country. Brazilians are so weirdly nationalistic and for what reason,
The country is a shithole
People are backward and corrupt
where does Brazilian nationalism come from?
Astroman77 [#175]Your comfort zone is talking about a continent having more titles than the only relevant country in SA? Hahahahahahaha
Brazilians being nationalist when having no reason to be so is actually hilarious.
soonwookong [#202]yet teams like arsenal have fielded starting 11s of 11 different nationalities
Arsenal is required to have a majority of players native to the UK. If the same rule applied to the top teams in the EMEA region, they wouldn't exist.
Astroman77 [#241]Arsenal is required to have a majority of players native to the UK. If the same rule applied to the top teams in the EMEA region, they wouldn't exist.
Wrong, it's only 8/25 homegrown players (doesn't even mean English, just have to had 3 years in an English team prior to age 21, non English example include Cesc Fabregas for Arsenal) in premier league (doesn't even have to start them) and 0 in UCL. Shut up.
Race, nationality or origin of players doesn't matter. Enjoy the players and teams by where the organization is located, the major region (americas, EMEA or pacific) or the players themselves. I'm in the US and my favorite teams are EDG, LOUD, Liquid and EG. Only one of those teams is even from where I live.
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