An objective take on GC, and why yall should chill

#1

xSaneZ

GC is there to support a community which has been deemed less 'acceptable' by society to play video games. That's why there's a smaller community, it's not just because females are biologically worse or anything, stop saying that. This system therefore exists as a positive force to encourage and most importantly develop this community, maybe so that one day women are incorporated into the actual VCT.

As for trans people, they've gone through this same 'shunning' but for some who have been viewed as males for most of their lives they may have not - so I can understand why people are angry but at the same time it's unreasonable to dig into their past to find out, so it's better just to give them the benefit of the doubt. And honestly just imagine the kind of toxicity and transphobia they'd often experience in ranked anyway, regardless of when they transitioned. Also it's not like every trans player is topping the charts and destroying everyone else in the scene, so people really shouldn't be that mad over it.

Just my thoughts.

#2

LyCan52

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allat break it down to 9 words 😿

#3

SEN_FAN335

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Game Changers is good and VLR is really dumb

#4

LyCan52

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agree 😿

#5

kfox

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Smartest vlr take ever

#6

svoikhnebrosaem

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how do professional teams like g2 gozen and v1 who get paid thousands a month and have coaches and bootcamp get stomped no names in challenegrs open quals? i know theres no "biological" difference but whats holding them back, theres no toxicity and they are accepted now

#7

LouBag

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Whose gonna tell him about V1?

#10

svoikhnebrosaem

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tell me what?
https://www.vlr.gg/186215/nsic-vs-version1-knights-monthly-gauntlet-2023-march-ro16
https://www.vlr.gg/167317/version1-vs-team-4d-challengers-league-north-america-ro64

#8

ortuh

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all the homophobes, transphobes, mysogynists, racists when svoikhnebrosaem says that there is no toxicity and that theyre accepted now...😿😿

#9

JohnCenaFan2021

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i think there was a similar dilemma in chess

theres less women who competitively play games like val, and significantly less who actually want to go pro, so most GC teams are going to struggle against teams whose players generally are more competitive and are more used to the environment.

tl;dr more men play more

#59

Moiraine

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Bro valorant has 40% female playerbase lol

#67

xSaneZ

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competitively

#13

V0sotros

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They still aren’t totally accepted and the lower player base historically means there’s a much lower playerbase ready for comp play as they exist now. GC teams basically have to teach their players from scratch how to play the game at the highest level, meanwhile most of the open quality teams not only have equal or better skill just because they’ve been playing longer, they also have more experience playing. I expect as time goes on more women will be ready for the T2 level, and eventually (hopefully) the GC circuit will have ran its course and VCT can be fully integrated.

#16

Halleluhwah

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same reason the normal g2 got stomped

#19

EWW_EU_EWHO

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research says there is biological difference and that is retained by those who transitioned their gender which why they statistically do better.. its just emotion over facts in this case and you get called names such as misogynist or transphobe for pointing out the facts

#21

svoikhnebrosaem

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can you link the research you talk about?

#22

EWW_EU_EWHO

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can you google? here is one which explains how having higher testosterone has been linked to male born humans to have better spacial ability - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6135826/
there are other such articles which have found that the brain processes visual information differently between men and women, which could impact reaction times. For example, men may have faster neural transmission in certain areas of the brain involved in processing visual stimuli..
not to mention the sociological and cultural reasons which are accepted by all - men have more exposure to video games because it is considered a male hobby - something which even applies to most trans woman since they are considered male by most of the society until their transition - another advantage which they have over female born

#72

V0sotros

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From my understanding of the article you linked, it’s saying that the presence of testosterone has very little to do with a higher spacial ability, and has more to do with how men are socialized into participating in hobbies they would increase their spacial ability more than women

#82

capital_d_colon

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The results of this study add to the consistent finding of males’ better performance in spatial ability. However, the role of prenatal testosterone in spatial ability was not supported.

#25

B1itz

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Because the region is years behind the main league, do you think if you threw 2020 Sentinels into tier2 they would do well? No they wouldnt. Valorant as a game, like every sport, evolves with time, people understand the game better. The worst teams in franchising today would crush the best ones from 2 years ago. GC doesnt have any support from Riot, very little money is put into the scene and unlike what you said even the top teams dont have proper coaching staffs. V1s entire coaching staff consists of Effys and no one else, they have 0 assistant coachs and 0 analysts. Effys isnt even a real coach. I dont know how you could expect a league to develop with 0 support from Riot or any good coaches.

The very problem with GC is that it has no support. Why would any good coach join a Game Changers team when they could join a tier2 or 1 team and be more successful and make more money. Also its only been a year ofc the league is behind. Its the same for China.

Another reason is that women just play video games less, so its much much harder to find good players because there are so much less of them

#26

Zerphyr1

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r u braindead? I'm actually mad about what you just said

#60

Moiraine

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Are you unironically saying gc has no support from riot ? LMAOOOOOOOO

Also coaches wouldnt go to gc team of they could join a tier 1 or tier 2 team NOT because riot is not giving support but because tier 1 and 2 play at a much higher level and the players are better.
I understand you wanna support gc but please use good arguments not stupid shit

#75

B1itz

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What support do they have?

"Also coaches wouldnt go to gc team of they could join a tier 1 or tier 2 team NOT because riot is not giving support but because tier 1 and 2 play at a much higher level and the players are better."
Yes thats literally what I said in my comment thanks for copying my comment I guess? It doesnt matter why the thing is no good coaches would ever join a Game Changers team so the league cant grow

#77

abcdefgh

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tldr: countless factors in making a great team, and with the way smaller player pool of gc, it's even harder.

far more men play the game. while now it is "socially acceptable" for girls to play games, it is still the gender norm for boys to play. you'd find way more guys who have played since they were kids, but women who play generally start later. on top of this, 'no toxicity' is a bit of a stretch. yes, people are generally more accepting now, but there is still toxicity surrounding women in ranked. of course, ranked toxicity is a problem for everyone, but if you put women in an already male dominated industry on top of the ranked toxicity, it's only normal that it's more demoralizing for them than it is for the average guy.
^^these are all things that shrink the female competitive player pool even more. less gc players = less likely for them to be good at the game. bootcamping + coaching can only do so much, there are more great male players than there are great female players, hence why they lose to no name teams.

there are just so many internal factors: roles, personality clashes, coaching, synergy, etc.

so to take an already small gc scene, pick out only the best players, then pick out players that fit each role in a five-player team, on top of making sure they have good synergy together? harder than you may think. whereas for men, they have countless of great players to choose from to make a coordinated team. and the larger player pool comes from what i said above of gender norms.

#11

unknown_trash

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About the trans people aren't dominating all the charts thing. I think they are. At least in NA they are. Some of the region's best fraggers are trans (florescent, keenc, Bob, etc) and they generally perform much better.

#27

B1itz

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ok but so many of the regions biggest fraggers are cis too. Only 2 out of the top 10 are trans its really not weird at all

#61

Moiraine

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Because other regions dont have as many trans players in gc as NA does

#71

B1itz

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...what? NA only has 2 in the top ten thats what I was talking about

#76

gablin

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2 out of 10 is still a lot, considering that trans people are generally found in less than 1% (ranging from <0.1% to 0.6%) of the worldwide population.

#81

B1itz

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bad arguement, trans women are significantly more likely to play video games than any other group, especially cis women who are often shunned just for being women. 2 out of 10 its not weird at all

#86

gablin

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wdym "significantly more likely to play video games than any other group"? Don't they play video games just as often as the average male? Also, the player base in Valorant is relatively evenly distributed compared to other games (about 35% are female). This means that for every trans-woman in the player base, there are about 58 biological women. Arguing against the fact that trans-women do better statistically is delusional and like arguing against the fact that male professional players currently do better than female professional players (because the majority trans-women were male growing up). I'm not saying that men are biologically better at games, I'm just pointing out that for some reason (be it because of society and expectations for a certain gender to have certain hobbies, and therefore the experience head start for men) men and trans-women currently perform better at valorant.

#89

B1itz

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" This means that for every trans-woman in the player base, there are about 58 biological women"
I dont understand how you got this number you are gonna need to explain that to me

But no trans women dont play it the same as the average male, like I said in my comment its significantly more. This is just because its really difficult to meet other trans people and other people who will accept you in real life so trans people in general gravitate towards the internet where its easy to meet other people like them

#90

gablin

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"This means that for every trans-woman in the player base, there are about 58 biological women"

In this quote I should have said "trans person" instead of "trans woman", because I used the entire trans population for the calculation.

Since I don't think there are specific numbers, I used the percentage of female players and the average trans population (I gave you the benefit of the doubt and used 0.6%, although it ranges from <0.1% to 0.6%). so that part is pure maths. The true numbers are probably off, but not by much.

"But no trans women dont play it the same as the average male, like I said in my comment its significantly more. This is just because its really difficult to meet other trans people and other people who will accept you in real life so trans people in general gravitate towards the internet where its easy to meet other people like them".

In this regard I found this study: https://www.out.com/tech/2020/8/07/10-percent-gamers-are-lgbtq-nielsen-study-shows
So what you said is actually true, but this doesnt impact the calculation a lot. According to this study, 1% of gamers are trans (that's more than 0.6%), but something I didn't consider all this time was that we're only talking about trans women. This means that you can roughly halve this number and we are back to the pre-calculated number of trans women for every biological woman (Probably even more than before because you now have to use 0.5% instead of 0.6%, but since there are more trans women than trans men, it doesn't matter much).

#92

B1itz

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We are talking about trans women and amab enbies which iirc is about 65% of the trans population.

but either way its probably more about 1% of the playerbase are trans women because trans women are much more likely to play video games than trans men. Also that .6% number isnt perfect, the problem is that most trans people dont wanna tell anyone they are trans and are either closeted or cis passing its actually higher than .6%.

BUT it doesnt really matter, 2 out of 10 being top 10 isnt that unlikely when you consider the fact that trans women are significantly more likely to play Valorant than cis women. You are just taking numbers for like in general, like 1 out of every 116 women are trans(I think) but that doesnt account for the fact that cis women generally dont play video games and trans women generally do play video games, which is why 2 out of 10 isnt weird at all

#70

Memory_gg

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ye florescent literally destroyes everyone i wonder why...

#73

B1itz

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MeLs IGLing is so much better than everyone elses in GC? Do cis women have an advantage???

#87

CowRabies26

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The 10 highest-rated players in Day 1 of the 2023 VCTGameChangers
1-Florescent
2-keenc
3-sHmeaty
4-unstable
5-lazylion

4 OUT OF THE TOP 5 HIGHEST RATED ARE BIOLOGICAL MALES LIKE ARE YOU A REAL HUMAN?

#88

unknown_trash

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Bro I'm agreeing with your point. Chill tf out.

#93

Memory_gg

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so true ain't fair

#12

Zerphyr1

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there are biological differences im not sure how people are so unaware.

#14

ortuh

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biological differences like what?

#15

Zerphyr1

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reaction time, hand to eye coordination, competitiveness at video games and ability to learn at a faster rate whilst playing video games.

all these factors I mentioned above men are better at. No hate to GC or anything and I love what riot is doing with it but its just true that in fps games males are just naturally better than females and the reason males are better doesn't have much to do with player base.

#17

ortuh

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any sources?

https://www.psypost.org/2020/11/women-perform-as-well-as-men-in-spatial-action-video-games-when-accounting-for-previous-gameplay-experience-58502

With the same amount of experience (the reason why gamechangers exist) men and women are at the same level in video games.

Everything you listed is literally just bro science/your own opinion

#18

Zerphyr1

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heres reaction time: https://www.josam.org/josam/article/view/66

heres hand to eye coordination: this one explains that males brains are 10% larger than females and have larger spaces in their brain for motor and spatial skills. That means males tend to do a better job at tasks that need hand-eye coordination and understanding where objects are in space, such as throwing a ball or hammering a nail.
https://www.webmd.com/brain/features/how-male-female-brains-differ

competitiveness: https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/do-women-shy-away-competition-do-men-compete-too-much#:~:text=Research%20suggests%20that%20men%20are,increases%20through%20puberty%20and%20adulthood.

for my last point about" ability to learn at a faster rate whilst playing video games", i could not find anything about that so I will no longer call that a valid point.

#28

B1itz

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The reaction time thing is the dumbest fucking thing, its so easily debunked there is clearly no actual thought process.

Can you ask yourself, why might men generally have a higher reaction time? because it isnt genetic, reaction time is LEARNED. You cant just be born with an incredible reaction time, that isnt how it works. Men generally do things that practice their reaction time, example: video games. I guarantee MeL has a faster reaction time than nearly ever single person on this site

#29

Zerphyr1

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no? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198384/#:~:text=The%20mean%20fastest%20reaction%20time,ms%20and%20121%20ms%2C%20respectively.

here is a website which shows the reaction time for the top athletes in the world and comparing them from female vs male. the top males are faster by over 10% on average and their max reaction time is faster then women.

I think you honestly dropped out of school bc u don't know shit bud

#30

B1itz

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dude read the sentence literally right after it

"However, that sex difference in reaction time is likely an artifact caused by using the same force threshold in women as men, and it permits a woman to false start by up to 21 ms without penalty. We estimate that female sprinters would have similar reaction times to male sprinters if the force threshold used at Beijing was lowered by 22% in order to account for their lesser muscle strength."

are you baiting?

#31

Zerphyr1

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did you even read it or did you only read the part about the olympics? they talk about research independent from the olympics.

#34

B1itz

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"Our calculations suggest that the allowable increase in force on the starting block 100 ms after the gun fires should be 19.4 Kgf for women if the male force threshold remains unchanged at 25 Kgf. For the current starting block force threshold of 25 Kgf, we calculate that female sprinters will physiologically require a 7% longer time to reach the same value as men. This motor difference explains over half of the 11% sex difference in the lower bounds of the 99.9% confidence intervals we found. As a side note, from Newton's second law, since female sprinters have 25% less body mass than male sprinters [11] and 22% less propulsive force in the same time as men (see Text S1), women might accomplish 4% greater acceleration than men."

idk what you are talking about they say this twice, it doesnt matter where they did the test its still the same thing

continue thread →

#32

queueK

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there's a lot research showing females have a like 15-30ms slower visual reaction time.

whether that specific statistic affects their performance in Valorant, I don't know. I honestly doubt it since nobody ever reacts solely of visuals or audio in fps games, there's other state-specific information.

#35

B1itz

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The research this guy has provided literally states in the abstract that the reaction time probably isnt actually better, unless you can find something else that states it somehow compensated for that and that women were still slower I wont believe you.

But yeah you are right the tiny difference in reaction time these studies show dont matter anyway because reaction time isnt actually that important in Valorant, hence why all the top GC players are radiant

continue thread →

#42

Zerphyr1

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this part btw doesn't make sense from the people writing this experiment as males had 25 false starts and females only had 4 so if 4 false starts were considered allowed starts that would barely impact the overall mean reaction time for females.

#45

B1itz

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crazy how now that the study that YOU LINKED goes against what you say suddenly its not valid and the scientists who did the experiment actually messed it up

continue thread →

#33

ortuh

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im at work rn so ill give these all a good read when im home ty

#20

EWW_EU_EWHO

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its just emotion over facts... they shun the fact that there is biological advantage just so that it cannot be used to hate on trans people but science cannot be denied. i dont condone the hate but facts are facts

#23

filter

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Why is it that someone like dsg lazy lion who played well in the t2 scene and was on the same team as demon1 and clear would play in game changers and put other teams at a massive disadvantage. It makes no sense unless it’s an attempt at a easy cash grab

#24

Cosmic_

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more popularity

#74

Okami_J

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Im boutta switch over frr

#36

retsaot

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gc threads are so fun to read

#38

delusional100tfan

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Back in monkey days men hunt women stay in cave prepare food
That's kinda carved in our genes so that's the difference

#63

Moiraine

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Now this is dumbfuck shit

Good thing we’re not in caveman times anymore. Or you could just go back in time and enjoy hunting for food and give up all your 21st century benefits.

If you wanna keep the progress then you need to progress with the times.

I agree with men being biologically advantaged in gaming but this is just straight retarded

#83

delusional100tfan

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Mb men better lol it's just fact but people pretend the size of scene makes a difference but that then doesn't explain why trans people are performing better than gc players
Please explain your glorious take with your superior intelligence

#49

Kryomeister

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TL GC on brazil was unstoppable 2 years in a row, but now Loud GC with 2 male won their first trophy

#78

PandaZ

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Holy shit Jelly absolutely farmed all of them

#62

SigmaMale

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Riot said GC is a pipeline for women to get into challengers.

#64

madvillain

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Shame for the impostors who try playing rp pretending as woman for easier competition lmao

#79

1phnxe

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based Uganda take
but Ugandan government wants to put all of them to death which is wrong

#65

Mortadelo

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I can’t wait for GC to disappear, since that will mean it has served its purpose and it’s no longer necessary. I’m sick of arguing the same shit with people that doesn’t remotely understand the point of it

#91

Congo1

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You had me in the first half not gonna lie

#66

yaiima0

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Love all the pseudo scientists on here lmao

#68

espeon

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too many braindeads on this site 😵‍💫

#69

MaTrix96

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Bcj plays t1 valo and he never gave excuses.

#80

1phnxe

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true but women have worse reaction time than men

the whole reason people are arguing is because of the trans people dominating

#84

Simp4S0m

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No amount of posts explaining the point of GC will make the trolls stop. They will keep making bait posts to trigger some of the fans.

#85

ganyufps

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Seeing it emphasized that players of my gender have to be put into a league of their own to remotely have a career would just scare me into going for a different job but that's just me.