Giving it away...

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#1
m4
4
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So I know most of this community hates me. Deserved. I was arrogant and made fun of some of your favorite people. But it was fun, right?

But there was a moment in time where I really thought I had something to offer teams. I reached out to a lot of people. Some people gave really helpful feedback and some straight up ignored me. One person even blocked me :) I do name drop MikesHD in the second doc. He deserves it for either lying to me or not supporting his own viewpoints at the time the world was ridiculing me.

One particular person, who will remain nameless, truly gave me a lot of their time and tried to help me make some connections. I'm not sure if that person would want to be named here but they challenged me to show them what I knew. If I was such a "good coach" or thought I had potential, I would need to show it. I know you all are going to hate this and meme it but it might help someone out there think about the game differently. It does nothing sitting in my Google Drive and rotting away.

Before people ask or make memes (which by all means, meme away friend) there's no chatgpt in this one at all. There are grammatical errors and spelling errors. You can see me in all my grammatical shame. Both of these are sort of my beliefs that I've formed over 20 years of playing competitively. These are the agonizing results of "almost" making it but never crossing the finish line.

I'm not looking for feedback so I'm not going to respond to any comments. This is just throwing away the dream so someone else can catch it.

First, a limited slide deck on how to organize a team at the organizational level:
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1qOTTM3XxJsbKA72bMNI-5kwJ1wUAWjfIq5alT7CTx3c/edit?usp=sharing

Second, is the challenge this person gave me to prove some of my ideas. I've iterated on some of these ideas and have a clearer concept on most of the ideas covered here.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XweagZK_YsrP3Lg8-vlq5dNvGeV5H_Ll/view?usp=sharing

All in all, the last five years have kinda sucked. But that's life :) Enjoy the content, or don't. I'm out!

#2
AdAstraPerAspera
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See you tomorrow

#12
kfan4238173
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white text on bright yellow background... wrap it up

#3
FAKEYY
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Gooning

#4
king_bob
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bro I feel like I’ve been living in a cave or something I didn’t even know your 100t doc blew up nor any of the hate you’ve been getting since then till yesterday this vlr shit serious

#24
m4
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I was definitely given the internet villain treatment. Platchat crucified me. Valorant EMEA broadcast roasted me. Valorant NA Tiktok dropped a iceberg on me... They did not like it.

#5
riensluvr
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You actually did help me in one way or another, I was creating my first analysis and I was going to make it more pages, but I stopped at 5 and thought: "this didn't work for m4, it won't work for me"

#25
m4
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That's fair. I have had the same approach of trying to condense my work.

I've since learned that there can be two forms of writing. One, is for yourself. When you deal in these complex ideas, writing can be a way to straighten out your thoughts and then give you a new perspective on the other side. The second way of writing, is for an audience. You need to provide value to that audience or what's the point of reading your stuff?

I fell to hard in the first category. Even with these documents, it straddles both sides. If I were to re-write this, I would heavily focus on the value portions of the analysis and less on the teaching aspects. One of the lectures I watched made a very good point that has lived in my head rent free for months. In school, someone is paid to read your writing and give you feedback. We've been taught how to write in that system. In the real world, no one cares about your ideas. The only care if there is conflict and you provide some sort of benefit or solution of value to that conflict.

:)

#6
1nshh
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right there

#7
kuruk
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chatgpt add spelling and grammatical errors for me

#17
grisx23
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you are fucked lmao

#8
my-dad-ate-my-toes
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Damn, we never got m4 on the vlr podcast, truly sad times

#9
riensluvr
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wait that would have been hype asf

#19
justachillmf
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we should get the newgen post spammers (sleepingsnorlax, jayde, delighted, scammer_cat) in the podcast and just watch them talk about anythinng

#10
red123
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i ain't reading all that. im happy for you tho, or sorry that happened.

#11
fungame024
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is m4 a coach for a team or smth?

#13
Vaaero
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The goat returns

#14
31Raven
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m4 are you leaving to be 100ts head coach?

#26
m4
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Work life has got too heavy to keep ragebaiting. Serot got me to come back and write something.

#15
yxpala
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been praying for times like these

#16
MarvedClearsYou
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we are all healed by this more than jakura

#18
meatyyy
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challenged failed

#23
m4
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0/8 rage bait. You didn't even try.

#20
serot
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I know ur not gonna respond to this but I feel like giving my thoughts.

Honestly I feel like most of it is overanalysis of either non-issues in gameplay or explanations of strategies already in use by teams. For example, the idea of selling a story for fakes is already in use my the majority of teams. Ult fakes and solo duelist pushes are pretty commonplace in the current competitive games. I think the idea of using CQB doctrine especially is honestly a non-factor apart from the team coordination involved, and many teams are already implementing this level of coordinated team peeks and positioning regardless (G2 especially). Valorant is a game where you can catch people off guard easily with abilities and risky positioning that anyone who had a sense of self preservation in real life would never use. For the number of additional variables in game, applying real life combat doctrine to valorant will not work outside of the teamplay stuff. If anything there should be less of a focus on CQB doctrine and moreso on map theory and creative util usage which is the true frontier where the game can be pushed.

Idk when you wrote this analysis but its safe to say that most of what you had to say is implemented by teams in some form already, albeit not perfectly or implemented together. Pretty outdated but good analysis nonetheless. But at the end of the day its just a wordy and overexplained analysis of "ideal valorant" of which the entire VCT ecosystem has basically already figured out.

#22
m4
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Frags
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That's good feedback.

The purpose of the document was an overview. This was about 2 months after the release of the application. I tried really hard to condense it so all of your feedback is correct but was intentional to some degree. I do disagree with a couple points.

I don't think I agree with the CQB doctrine being a non-factor. I do find it a bit interesting that you immediately jumped to the most important part. CQB is usually always in teams. Solo-CQB is more or less a death wish. I think the problem is that a lot of VCT teams have some degree of this but I don't think it is intentional. And it not being intentional exposes gaps that other teams can exploit.

From what I have learned through research is that there are many forms of CQB taught at all levels. From local police, to SWAT, to military and then to elite military. Even at the elite military level, there is debate around best methods. So nailing it down and saying "it's a non-factor" is tough for me to swallow.

The idea that "Valorant is a game where you can catch people off guard easily with abilities and risky positioning that anyone who had a sense of self preservation in real life would never use." I don't know if you've been followed or are following what's going on in a certain country that is inside or near another country but for this fact alone they no longer do entry. They level the building with tanks or ordinance. CQB is insanely risky to the point where even entry with drones has lost it's value to the tanks just knocking the building over.

I wish you would have developed this idea a little bit more so I could have more of a discussion about it. But I'm not going to let this chance disappear because there are a lot of people at all levels who don't know this stuff.

For example, room entry. Valorant is nothing but a bunch of open rooms that connect with hallways. CQB is a strategic way to manage the threats and danger, in clearing rooms and hallways (limiting for discussion). I think a big part of what is missing from teams implementing CQB is the biggest part of all, teamwork, which you rightfully identified.

The issue is that a lot of people get hung up on dynamic entry, which is the cool part, and covering angles, which is the boring part. Once you get into the room, you still need to cover entry points and connecting spaces that you may not have cleared. Or there may be spaces that you have cleared but can still present an area of danger if a threat re-enters a space. The idea that you have a job on a team to hold specific places as your team moves throughout the map, is missing. I think a lot of people who play at a high level are jocking for position to be the number 1 guy in the stack. This lack of rigidness in their movements leaves space for people getting picked off. Or even worse, after a space has been cleared as a team, someone decides to be a cowboy and leave the team in post-plant. For me, CQB is a disciplined skill that allows you to traverse danger space with some level of certainty that you've done your best to cover your bases and protect your guys.

The next piece is communication. I think we too often think that comms on VCT teams is perfect or even close to it. A lot of communication in CQB is practiced and drilled. The extra bits are trimmed over time. Most teams will have non-verbal cues that allow each person to know a series of steps that are coming in the future. While you cannot get to that level since you're looking at the screen, you have to find a way to minimize the discussion and compact it to the point where each person knows their role and the communication adds situation awareness and not noise.

I think maybe since "the challenged" was cut into one page pieces, or mini-summaries, you may have missed that the CQB stuff is the foundation. What I try to convey (I think, it's been a minute since I wrote this) is that you cannot approach map theory or agent theory until you have a solid grasp of the obstacles you are going to face. The only way to understand how to deal with the obstacles is through angle clearing, which CQB gives you a solid foundation in.

Once I understand the obstacles, I can then apply map theory or agent theory to those obstacles. This sort of approach eliminates your teams need to "follow the meta" because you know the obstacles you are facing and how map theory and agent theory apply. I've been on semi-pro teams that have got offers from organizations and the leaders of those teams relied on the idea that they will simply out skill the other teams. So fully adopting the meta is just another quick step in that equation. Who cares what agents or maps we pick, we will just out aim them. I believe this is why we see so many teams playing down a player or two when they dry-peek.

The problem with the idea " If anything there should be less of a focus on CQB doctrine and moreso on map theory and creative util usage which is the true frontier where the game can be pushed." is that there are no magical moments. We see these sorts of things in highlights but there are no gotchas or ideas that work every time. That is part of the fog of war discussion and why CQB is the essential answer to the problem. If your team has an understanding of how to traverse the space, safely and what the work assignments in post-plant or re-take, you are minimizing the variables. If I take the approach you are suggesting, I would need certain players on the enemy team to be in places where utility could be used. But what if they are not there? What if the enemy team stacks a site and we've used all this special utility for nothing? Gun-play dictates a lot of VCT wins and losses. There's a lot of efficiency to be gained by apply CQB.

Even if I'm wrong, I've got an entire backlog of "map theory and creative util usage" right here: https://imgur.com/a/hGd5Kqw

Anyways, I appreciate the comment and I hope you don't take my push back as a rejection. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I just view Valorant as a game of probability and that the more you do to increase your probability of winning, the higher likely you're going to win engagements, rounds and ultimately the match. Cheers!

#27
serot
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I think you are just overexplaining it. Call it whatever you want, but you basically just want clearer communication, better discipline, and better teamwork. None of this is new, just incompletely or improperly implemented across all the teams. If a coach fails to address these, it is simply a coaching staff issue not an issue with the fundamental approach to the game.

Not all teams have perfect communication, but I think most top teams have it down pretty well to where its nearly a non issue. Pros know the spots people can feasibly play and the type of timings people can take. In real life you need the standardization of angle clearing protocols because you are entering unfamiliar places and need to be sure everything is checked by your group. It is basically a non factor in valorant. because the average radiant player knows the angles to clear in advance, how to clear them safely, how to path around the site without being exposed to too many angles, etc. Maps are known in advance and extremely familiar to players.

In real life you would need someone to clear left while you clear right, someone to hold your back while your hold theirs, etc. In valorant the 50/50 angles can be easily cleared with utility, and the rest of the angles are pretty straightforward. It is exceptionally rare that a player can slip the net on a site take or while clearing space without hiding in a smoke or making a play with utility, something that modern CQB wouldn't even account for to begin with.

In the post plant or on defense any competent player knows the angles being watched by their team or plays a position based on covering the site entry points together. "I'm holding your X. Can you hold my Y" type of comms are very very common and not really worth optimizing at all with military level efficiency. If the level of play was that low it wouldn't be any different from ranked. The type of mistakes solved by CQB doctrine would only be a major issue in ranked, not in professional play. The slip ups that do happen are something you don't need to solve with some rigid implementation of military doctrine, just better discipline and teamplay. Peeking together is already something teams are getting very good at. Trades these days are nearly instantaneous as players get more experienced.

TLDR: you are overthinking it. Implementing military tactics is unnecessary. Just improve teamwork and communication, stop players from doing risky solo peeks randomly, and you should be fine.

#29
m4
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Frags
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Please help me better understand.

Starting at the top:

  1. "Call it whatever you want, but you basically just want clearer communication, better discipline, and better teamwork."

    • I call it CQB? If CQB is not the framework, what is the framework you are suggesting? People work on clearer communication, better discipline and better teamwork, in CQB drills.
  2. "Not all teams have perfect communication, but I think most top teams have it down pretty well to where its nearly a non issue."
    -Evidence disagrees.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K7RFhnZ5Rw
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sOS2BNDuDQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1Vzo-VFttg

  3. "The slip ups that do happen are something you don't need to solve with some rigid implementation of military doctrine, just better discipline and teamplay."

    • CQB literally is the application of discipline and teamplay. Using critical thinking to solve complex problems in a dangerous environment.
  4. " It is basically a non factor in valorant. because the average radiant player knows the angles to clear in advance, how to clear them safely, how to path around the site without being exposed to too many angles, etc. Maps are known in advance and extremely familiar to players."

    • I struggle with this one. You are saying it is a non-factor but teams are constantly dropping players because of underperformance around these areas. 100 Thieves just dropped an entire roster. If the average radiant player has such a grasp on the foundations of the game, why are mistakes in these areas a source of their problems? You agreed that players push and get aggressive but this goes against the "average radiant" argument. If they know everything you mentioned, they would not do the behavior that makes them an easy target. There's a lack of critical thinking that goes on in these situations. You can overcome this by applying CQB concepts and drilling them.

TL;DR: You're losing me when you say CQB doesn't apply but then in the same sentence say that the underlying principles of CQB should be used. I think you're getting lost in the literalness of the idea. I also think you're making generalizations and assumptions about professional play. The suggestion of using CQB as a framework allows you to work through the problems you're describing so you can get to a better place. I think we agree but you not acknowledging what CQB truly is.

#31
m4
0
Frags
+

Would love for you to DM me a way to get in contact with you. I truly want to better understand your perspective. I keep thinking if there is a better way of accomplishing this, why is the real world application (even if imperfect) not better than the current way things are being accomplished.

#30
Uribaba
3
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Chatgpt vs deepseek epic battle

#21
m0rtem
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HERE WE GO AGAIN

#28
sh1lll
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yea ngl even if you came off arrogant (which you were tbf) u didn’t deserve even close to that much hate that you recieved. it was fucked up seeing that especially considering you were just a passionate person who wanted to give feeedback.

wish the best on you 🫡

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