ngl im sick of seeing this shit, people just hating on flor and just debating in vlr threads. It would be best just to ban it and not talk about it
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Ban trans discussion
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I would agree, but many paople have different definitions for that word. A lot of people (Including on vlr) use it as a buzz word and just throw it around when some disagrees with them in a valid discussion. We just should avoid such dicussion threads here because both sides are very polarized and wont change their oppinion anyway.
I don't think we should avoid POSITIVE discussion threads about it because we need to encourage people to be more accepting of trans people. In a world absent of prejudice is empathy, kindness, charity and a world of embrace. What is the point in being hateful towards trans people when you can just accept it and just go unbothered?
We dont live in that kind of world and that wont change anytime soon. There will always transphobes and racists, especially in countries where its normalized (Wich are also active on vlr). Every normal discussion thread is doomed to be flooded by such people, so if you arent ready to have that then this is not the right space for such a discussion. You can create awareness on a million other ways in better environments and dont need a threat on vlr to do so.
Encouraging change in places which people expect it the least, is arguably the MOST imperative or else you'll always have a specific demographic of people who will subscribe to that hateful perception regarding another group of people. It is important because when people see that discussion and representation in their little hobbies, interests or spaces within the world, it then becomes far more normalised within society as a whole. I think it's maybe a little worrying how much you're willing to just accept it but hey who am I to judge. In hindsight, I don't think its that hard to ban people who will openly be hateful online.
Sure you can try to ban people but they will always come again, especially when they make up such a large proportion of this community (not saying you shouldnt ban them just saying its not the solution). And about the "Encouraging change in places which people expect it the least" part, in what I said, I did not exclude the fact that you should create awareness in spaces where it wouldnt be common. I just stated that it should happen in a different way or environment. It could be on broadcast or in a vlr news, it just has to be more controlled, so only factual information can be spreaded that isnt hate. Especially because people seem to worry for the affected and many have enough of seeing a lot of uninformed people argue for hours about the same thing over and over again, we shouldnt have threads were we talk about the diffrences in sexes the x time.
is it transphobia to believe trans people are people, worthy of of basic decency, but that their transexuality isnt a positive trait but rather a mental disorder?
someone whos behaviour is positive and non-threatening towards them but that disagrees on the "its a good thing to be encouraged".
and sees it as similar to schizophrenia or bulimia? people with a setback but people nontheless?
im curious because transphobes on the internet are usually very one dimensional haters, but the example i provided is more in tune to real life people
Self mutilation
low self esteem
gender dysphoria
high depression even discounting transphobia
the very idea of a conflicting body and mind, what you are isnt what you feel. (similar to feeling ugly even though your bf finds you pretty but ramped up to 1000)
the need for constant hormone injections which have several side effects (one of which is clinical depression due to hormonal imbalance)
just everything really, the clothes dont fit you well
the reality in your head and the reality of the physical is in disarray
for you to feel whole the entire world needs to change their definitions of everything and break down society just so you can finally not feel like kissing a lightpost at 300mph
its a setback, people can live with it, but that doesnt mean it isnt a setback
Are you defending trans people or not? I can't tell.
Because yes, transgender people do experience gender dysphoria.
Yes, I'm sure transgender people pre-transition do experience high rates of depression and anxiety.
Yes, they do have a conflicting body and mind.
But these are literally things that would encourage a transgender person to transition because once they do transition, these things are all essentially minimalised. There are more people that regret knee surgeries than people that regret receiving gender affirming care in the US.
i still think the idea you're proposing here is transphobic, but transphobia has a very broad definition, and its definitely different from the blind hatred and disgust that most transphobes have. its transphobic since it disagrees with gender transition in a real setting, simple as that. but yeah its not as egregious and hateful as others.
and while i'm here i'll make the argument against what you're saying:
gender transition has been repeatedly shown to be the most effective medical treatment for gender dysphoria. being fully honest i can't be bothered googling to get these sources, but if you google studies on gender affirmation therapy, hormone therapy, and overall wellbeing of trans people, it's near consensus that these all have positive effects.
that's the argument for supporting medical transition including hormone blockers, hormone replacement, and surgeries.
there's also the argument for social transition: that regardless of overall outcomes, people should be given the freedom to express themselves exactly how they want to, including changing their appearance, name, and pronouns. this is presumed to maximize wellbeing, as well as being in line with our understanding of freedom as a human right. love <3
I guess i would rather invest in a cure than a treatment, while i understand how that opens up to things like shock therapy.
my point is then, if people are free, why is it wrong to disagree, i agree on the basics of decency, but not on the nature of treatment and classification. my question becomes, why is it so wrong to see it as mental illness when thats what it factually is?
Its on the same vein as schizophrenia, bpd, depression and anxiety.
i mean i'd be fine seeing it as a mental illness - it's probably not incorrect - but there's definitely some issues with the associations that creates. the thing is, gender dysphoria is not the same as schizophrenia, bpd, depression, or anxiety. i see this comparison made with schizophrenia and eating disorders, which appear very similar to gender dysphoria: the mind perceives something to be true that isn't true, or wants something that isn't objectively good. the difference from those disorders is that the best treatment for gender dysphoria is to affirm those impulses, not to stop them. that's based on the same evidence i pointed to earlier.
before writing this, i had thought that gender dysphoria wasn't considered a mental illness, but looking at some medical journal entries, it might be? definitions of these terms vary slightly and they're changing all the time, so shrug.
regardless, i think the main thing to emphasize here is that GD has similarities and differences with other mental disorders.
- it causes periods of pain, discomfort, and sadness - similar to anxiety, depression, bpd, and other "mental-state" disorders
- it is insistent and not easily fixed - most disorders require treatment through therapy or medicine and a long period of professional attention to see good progress
- many disorders can be interlinked - GD often causes increased depression and anxiety, as well as being correlated with autism spectrum disorder and specific examples of trauma or past experiences
- mental disorders often don't have a defined, isolated cause - a depressed person can have MANY reasons they feel the way they do, based on their experiences, worldview, lifestyle, or health
this comment is getting far too long but you get the idea: there's also differences in how mental disorders work and should be treated. please, if you are interested in the subject, look at the studies from medical journals on the topic. not just GD, but mental illnesses as a whole, it's all very interesting. thanks for giving me the chance to give my uninformed opinion <3
before writing this, i had thought that gender dysphoria wasn't considered a mental illness, but looking at some medical journal entries, it might be?
Sexuality-based mental disorders have no scientific basis, so there is no real consensus. Homosexuality was removed for this reason. Problem is, if you remove one thing then you can make the argument to remove everything else, you also then eliminate an identifier for someone's behaviour.
The question then becomes, is it better to recognise this as a disorder and provide treatment, or leave it alone?
oh definitely the first one. it's really rare in medicine to just 'leave it alone' with anything, right? with pretty much anything, if there is reason to believe treatment will help, medical professionals will research and eventually offer it to patients. even if that isn't under the umbrella of "disorder", it still warrants treatment
Being trans is not an illness and I honestly do not understand how you dont see that saying trans people are ill is not offensive. It is literally just the way they feel or see themselves and you are literally calling them sick because of it. All the things you mentioned (Self mutilation, low self esteem, gender dysphoria, high depression) are all because they do NOT get the treatment they want (hormone therapy etc.) and are fixed if treatments like these would be available and socially acceptable. Being trans is not an illness, its just part of what you are. You are basically saying "they are not okay the way they are, but if they "get cured" I will accept them". They shouldnt have to change who they are in order to avoid treatments and hate from all over society. I hope you understand what I am trying to say and I also want to quickly appreciate how you are actually trying to understand different points instead of blatantly hating
edit: to summarize i just think calling trans an "illness" provoces a lot of associations that just shouldnt be there, being trans does not make you worse then anyone else and you definetely do not need to be "cured", you mostly just need acceptance and in some cases, if they decide they want to, also medical treatments to change, not cure, their bodies.
I see it as an illness because it doesnt make medical sense.
even naturally ocurring trans animals arent actually trans, they fully transition, its something that happens because they need to, like clownfish.
the reason why i see it as an illness is because it is not a natural ocurrence of the human being, we dont change because we need to, we dont sex change at all (fisiologically speaking).
so for someone to look at the mirror, and feel like there is something wrong with them for being the way they were born, does not make sense, you were born a man, but you feel like you should be a woman, this is where my emapthy kicks in, i understand self image issues, i can relate to the crippling feeling of disgust over ones body. but to say it feels extreme enough you need to alter your body in increasingly unhealthy ways like bottom surgery (which there are studies that show high probability of sepsis and necrosis, and nerve damage). Yeah, that absolutely falls under a mental illness, unlike online trolls, i dont hate trans people, i want them to be happy, to live fullfilling lives, they comitted no crime. But i dont understand how anyone would look at such a crippling situation, where your mind and body simply dont agree with each other, and think "ah yes, completely normal, that person is not having a tough time internally at all, its all society's fault, if we just tell them its ok they will be ok". thats very optimistic of you but even if there is transexuality is truly ONLY psychological, thats still not how you fix it. but then again, this is merely a discussion, i am not trying to be insulting, i just heavily disagree with your point
I completely agree with what you say, and new evidence is coming to light which supports this: https://www.bmj.com/content/385/bmj.q814
I truly hope people struggling with gender dysphoria get the care they need, which should definitely not include transitioning at expense of one's body and health (IMO)
I also want to make the point of people being 'normal'. No human is objectively normal, everyone has something fucked up about them, even the most perfect people will have flaws and are not normal in some sense. There is also a societal expectation of 'normal' which is the issue. Yes I 100% agree that some people like this are not 'normal', but that's completely ok. people are scared of not being normal, but they shouldn't as in reality it's absolutely fine to not be normal.
I feel like you're taking intuition too far here. In my view, desiring medical transition isn't fundamentally different from any preference a person has, in their own appearance or like, what sports they like watching. There are some preliminary studies drawing correlation between brain structure or hormones and gender dysphoria, but whether that is true or not, there's nothing fundamentally insane or invalid about medical transition. You want something, so you get it. The real difference is that we place such importance on the purity of the body. And yeah, there's real reason for that - as you said, surgery always has many risks and self-harm can be very common in trans people - but it's also kinda fake. There's no real reason that it's right or wrong for someone to have a penis or not. Some people really hate it, and whatever the cause of that, except in rare cases of mental derangement where someone is not fit to make medical decisions, there's nothing wrong with allowing them to change their body. As I said before, transition in every way has been shown as the most helpful response to GD. And as others have said, the regret rate for bottom surgery is less than that of knee surgery. The world is weird, and we've constructed this system of gender that makes random things seem ordered, and if your experiences don't fit into that order, it is made to seem unnatural and grotesque. Science is trying its best
It doesn't matter whether it's positive or not cause it's gonna go of the rails anyways, this website is already unbearable as is, adding political issues into it is just gonna make it even more of a Wasteland
I'd rather go and argue abt trans rights and other political issues on Twitter and the like, this is a valorant forum afterall
I said this and got downvoted...Riot is obviously is going in a direction that will eliminate players who don't agree with gender ideology, and leave just a player base which either is a part of, or conforms to gender ideology. It doesn't really matter what people think, the company decides what it what is right or not.
I feel like it got worse bc of some people defending SR at all costs. Like, I remember during the GC championship some people just giving SR normal criticism and all the SR fans would just gather and accuse them of being transphobic of hating women even if it wasnt anything related to gender. Bunch of them saying how SR would've smoked half the tier 1 teams wasn't helping either. Their fanboying just made it really easy for a lot of people to start hating on SR
You didn't read my comment lol, some the people that were criticizing SR were just criticizing some parts of their gameplay, nothing related to flor being trans or the gender of the team. Your comment is the perfect example of what I was referring to "If they criticizing SR in any way, shape, or form it must be bigotry!" Like it's so dumb fr, ur part of the problem
no I most definitely did read your comment. Either you dont understand how words work or something is wrong here...
I feel like it got worse bc of some people defending SR at all costs
is explicitly implying that the transphobia got worse because of SR fans being zealots. There is no other way to interpret that sentence. If you didn't intend that you should've written another sentence idk what to tell you.
some the people that were criticizing SR were just criticizing some parts of their gameplay, nothing related to flor being trans or the gender of the team.
Yes this did happen. However, implying that the CAUSE OF TRANSPHOBIA is SR fans freaking out when someone criticizes their team is just dumb... You are excusing the actual bigotry and blaming the SR fans for being easily offended... That makes no sense. How did transphobia "get worse" because the SR fans were offended. That's like criticizing a black rapper, the fans getting offended and claiming you are racist, and then blaming them for all of the racism that is directed towards that artist. You're just an idiot dude.
Your comment is the perfect example of what I was referring to "If they criticizing SR in any way, shape, or form it must be bigotry!" Like it's so dumb fr, ur part of the problem
again since you like to talk in ambiguities because it disguises your point and makes you seem like you arent completely deranged (you are) lets clarify what you are saying here. You are saying that SR fans who are being dumb zealots claiming criticism is transphobia is CAUSING PEOPLE TO BE TRANSPHOBIC... You realize that's an idiotic thing to say right?
You are saying that SR fans who are being dumb zealots claiming criticism is transphobia is CAUSING PEOPLE TO BE TRANSPHOBIC
I think what Alex was saying is that by being overzealous about the topic, the SR fans could've spurred otherwise non-transphobic people to be more vocal in a way that ultimately turned out to be transphobic. Maybe I'm being super unclear, I might be.
by being overzealous about the topic, the SR fans could've spurred otherwise non-transphobic people to be more vocal in a way that ultimately turned out to be transphobic
thats my fkin point dude. If fans being overzealous is what causes you to be transphobic then you were always transphobic to begin with. It is not the fans fault for the transphobic backlash. Yes SR fans being whiny asf is dumb. But blaming that whinyness for bigotry just excuses the actual bigotry. Again going back to my example if a Kendrick fan is super annoying and calls anyone who criticizes him racist is it the fan's fault if more people start saying the n word? No ofc it isn't that would be a really stupid thing to suggest.
I don't think it's stupid at all. Derogatory language is just so widespread and normalized nowadays that it's pretty common to hear those words (for me at least). I think a person can say transphobic things without actually meaning it/being transphobic.
I simply believe what I believe because I've seen many people who have said certain things, regardless of the level of offence, just to piss off the party they find annoying.
Oh for sure, but I feel like hate had gotten worse over time. And these knights in shining armor deflecting ANY criticism towards SR even if it's normal criticism towards their gameplay isn't making things any better
Like no one makes a big deal out of all the y0y posts every week, but if you criticize SR it's suddenly transphobic and bigotry like please be fr
Literally just shut up about the trans debate, even the argument of "They are biologically a male, they cant play in GC" is stupid because GC is for marginalized genders, like trans people. It is a person who was born a man that now identifies as a different gender from their sex playing videogames, it is not a big deal and does not matter
Might wanna look into it on your own lil bro. Its a hate crime where you live. I'm sure a lawyer, or a healthcare worker, or a middle schooler with a vague grasp of ethics and empathy could help you out.
"On 16 May 2018, the Swedish Parliament added "transgender identity and expression" to the country's hate crime legislation, effective on 1 July 2018. Sexual orientation was added in 2010. The Parliament also voted to add "transgender identity and expression" to the country's hate speech law, effective on 1 January 2019"
"Any person who in a statement or communication that is disseminated threatens or expresses contempt for a national or ethnic group or other such group of persons with allusion to race, skin colour, national or ethnic origin, creed or sexual orientation or gender identity, shall be sentenced for agitation against an ethnic group to imprisonment for at most two years or, if the offence is minor, to pay a fine."
Firstly, i literally do not see how the laws in my country of residence has ANYTHING to do with this.
Secondly, I want you to know that i am a first year law student and the information you are telling me is actually incorrect.
You can not be punished for example, refusing to use they/them pronouns. And in the legal system there is only TWO genders. Male or Female. The last time parliament voted for the implementation of a THIRD gender it didn't go through. SOURCE: (https://www.riksdagen.se/sv/dokument-och-lagar/dokument/motion/ett-tredje-juridiskt-kon_h8021998
So to sum up, you are completely wrong, Sweden only recognizes two genders and therefore there is no way you will ever get punished legally by "trans hate crime" since juridically there is no "trans" :)
Next time do not try and argue about someone elses country when they know much more about it then you (especially a law student and someone who frequently engages in local politics)
alternatively; how do you not get this? your country of residence went though an entire legislative process to recognize trans discrimination. just maybe there is something there perhaps?
how is it "unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people" to address someone by their TRUE and REAL biological gender
idk, you might wanna look into that. You also might wanna look into what a trans person is and what a non binary is. and before you embarrass yourself irl saying some shit like that, I recommend you don't pretend like being a freshman in law school means anything besides you got admitted to a school... yikes
I once again refer you to: an actual lawyer, or a healthcare worker, or a middle schooler with a vague grasp of ethics and empathy. additionally; google, chatgpt if you rather, you could also talk to a trans or a nonbinary person or really any LGBT+ person. probably not VLR.gg
no like real shit why are we having trans debates on this site
hope this helps :)
This is just a waste of my time. Arguing with someone who is using arguments built upon non-existent facts and false news is impossible. You have no understanding of this subject nor do you even live in the same country as me. Admit that you are WRONG and stop digging yourself deeper and deeper in your own lies, or maybe you are just that lost that you can not even accept that you are wrong when handed CONCRETE evidence debunking your whole premise, then i feel bad for you and the people around you because that is an internal issue that is going to hurt you a lot.
I do not need to look into what a trans person. Firstly I do not care. Secondly, in my field of work there is no trans people. The law only recognizes TWO genders, male and female. And living in a country where a third gender is not widely accepted, I would embarrass my self more by recognizing a third gender than if I did not.
You refer to "ethics and empathy" like that is relevant when it is really not. The truth does not care about "ethics and empathy".I choose to live my life according to the truth not fantasy.
Personal attacks on me just further proves that I am right and you are wrong. And to the last sentence "hope this helps :)" why would I need help from someone with no juridical experience or education?
Hope I brought you back to reality and that you can stop spreading lies, biological misinformation and stop poisoning weak peoples mind into believing in your lies.
At this point anything even slightly to related to poltics should be nuked imo
As much as I support Gender representation and wish that trans PPL get the recognition they deserve, this site is not it, the transphobes are gonna sour anything trans positive real quick anyways(this thread being a perfect example), and at that point I'd rather just not have this discussion on this platform at all and just keep the site somewhat tolerable
The valorant takes and baits are already more radioactive than ground zero Chernobyl, adding trans issues is making it damm near impossible to even exist on this platform without getting stage 69 brain cancer 💀
SO PLS, FOR GOOD TIMES SAKE, LETS KEEP THE BS OUT, BOTH PRO AND ANTI gender whatever the fuck
(and I'm supposed to be pro LGBTQ, kill me)
My brother in Christ i know that, but realise that this forum is meant for competitive valorant discussions 1st and foremost.
I will stand my ground and die on the hill of equal rights for everyone literally anywhere else, heck i strained my relationship with my parents for almost 3 years cause our politics clashed to the point I moved the fk out and only reconciled a year ago.
And as long as transphobic threads are nuked I'm fine with pro trans threads getting nuked aswell ae long as it doesn't make this cesspool of a forum even worse.
That way yes the gender positivity will go down but the toxicity will be crushed as well and in the end that's all I care abt
"ban trans discussion"
meanwhile this whole thread being a trans discussion
just believe what u want lol the trans discussion will never end because its so open ended
just each to their own beliefs u can have opinions on them and judge them however u want keep them 2 urself
its IMPOSSIBLE to have a well thought-out discussion regarding trans ppl without bringing in politics and religon
if they call whatever pronouns he or she just let them be man
yea the problem with discussions on here is that people arent here to be convinced or informed. The few times we do have people who are well informed on the subject due to their studies share their opinions/understanding of the subject they have to deal with idiots to the point where they just dont comment on future threads
There is nothing to be gained from the threads in their current form. It sucks to indirectly silence a minority however I just dont see a way you can change this fact without HEAVY moderation, which VLR has never really done.
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