Top Teams of all time (int. results only)

#1

Psion

Note: this is purely based off of international placements(not even the leagues), i have a spreadsheet if anyone wants it(ALSOOOOO at the end i'll add one comparing the regions)

NRG/Optic/Envy (2021-2023 OR present(depends on what you think the core is but doesn't matter for this since 2024 hasn't started yet)
Loud(2022-2023)
DRX/VS(2021-2023)
Fnatic (Copenhagen 2022- Present)
Paper Rex (2021-Present)
Navi/FPX (22-Present)
Tier Break
Kru (21-Present)
Team Liquid (2021-22)
EG (2023)
Gambit (2021)
X10/Xerxia/Talon (21-23)
Tier Break
Acend (2021)
Sentinels (2021)
Fnatic (2021- Reykjavik 2022)
Leviatan (2022-23)
EDG (2022-23)
Zeta Division(21- Present)
Tier Break
G2 (2021-22)
19 XSET (2022)
20 FUT (2023)
21 Team Vikings (2021)
22 Nuturn (2021)
23 Team Secret (2021- Present)
24 Team Liquid (2023)
25 100T (2022- 2023)
26 Crazy Raccoon (2021)
27 100T (2021)
28 T1 (2023)
Tier Break
29 Bilibili Gaming (2023)
30 Cloud 9 (2021)
31 Version 1 (2021)
32 Guild Esports (2022)
33 The Guard (2022-Present)
34 Giants (2023)
35 Furia (2021-23)
36 Keyd Stars (2021)
37 Northeption (2022)
38 Sharks (2021)
39 NIP (2022)
40 ASE (2023)
41 F4Q (2021)
42 Supermassive (2021)
43 FPX China (2023)
44 Boom (2021-22)
45 Full Sense (2021)
Total Score(overall success) | Numbers of Teams (parity) | average of teams that made it(consistency) | combined
Americas: 1st | 1st | 2nd | 1st
EMEA: 2nd | T-2nd | 1st | 2nd
APAC: 3rd | T-2nd | 3rd | 3rd
China: 4th | 4th | 4th | 4th
Edit 1: It is now commentable so people can leave suggestions there

#2

beaver_man

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Imagine a world where ardiis never joined NRG… the gap would be even bigger

#3

Psion

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the gap in my numbers is 57.5 points over loud, thats the gap between FUT in 21st and Full sense in 45th

#48

laifu

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Imagine if C9 didn't give yay a zywoo/s1mple type contract

#58

Psion

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c9 hasn't had a consistent core for more than a season until mid 2023- now lol

#4

Lucrix

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fraudiis didn't nerf nrg hard enough😹

#5

Psion

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they actually gained more in 2023 than 2021(98 vs 92) but ik what you mean

#6

justforthis

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That nrg will not the same after fns leave (worse)

#12

Psion

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they've built up a cushion for at least this year though

#7

ionlyHave1Zuni

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Tf drx doing in third bro this is outrageous

#8

Lucrix

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read the note

#17

ionlyHave1Zuni

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put the note at the top like a normal person, who tf is gonna read the teams outside tje top 20 🙄

#20

Psion

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that may be my bad but im pretty sure a long line of text is pretty recognizable compared to a bunch of 1-2 word teams

#10

Psion

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they've gone to every international tournament besides the 1st Reykjavik and have made playoffs in every case except for Champs 2021, they are at 334 while Loud is at 362.5 and FNC 22-23 is at 313

#9

EseemedRes1180

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Bro how is kru and liquid better than gambit and acend need that hush ur smoking

#11

Psion

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Simple, Longevity. Kru has gone to all events but Masters 2 2023, and Team Liquid went to twice the events that Acend and Gambit did while getting good enough placements, but liquid- EG-gambit are all within 10 points of each other

#15

EseemedRes1180

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I think there's more merit to winning a tournament rather than qualifying for many and going out in groups

#18

Psion

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winning a tournament is worth between 10 and 3.3 group exits depending on how many teams are at the tournament and where in groups the team went out. You are forgetting KRU got 4th at Champs in 2021 and got top 8 (equivalent to making it out of groups) in the other 2 tournaments that year

#46

EseemedRes1180

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Stats wise i guess it makes sense but logically speaking maybe not

I saw the spreadsheet honestly good work man. May i ask how you compiled so much data ?

#47

Psion

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it took me around 3 hours but i already had the numbers (as in I already had the points distribution) so that shaved off a lot of time. I just went through all of the tournaments individually on VLR and added every team besides ones that only participated in Lock//in and got Top 16 or Top 32, which was about 11 teams iirc

#19

Psion

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also: do you want the spreadsheet?

#13

Lucrix

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read the note lil bro

#14

manca

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eg won champs
ur focused too much on longevity they should def be higher than 9

#16

Psion

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imo If it was too much longevity DRX would be in 2nd, EG are 1/2 a point behind liquid(who got top 8 at champs, masters, and top 4 at champs and masters and KRU has gone to literally every international but 1

#21

DeluluGavin

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this is so cool. can i see the spreadsheet?

#23

Psion

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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mQz_oZ5ZOeTKksdw98Z8NrJP7xwtP1JHRv1NZxr7DRg/edit?usp=sharing
here's a copied one without some older more experimental lists I had that included dominance (map and game win%) into the calculations

#41

DeluluGavin

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this is great. are you planning on expanding this spreadsheet? This is like the best list (with statistics) i have seen

#44

Psion

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I don't see why i wouldn't, I had an older one that included Map win% and series win% into the calculations, but it also included regional events which made updating it such a hassle

#45

DeluluGavin

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right, international tournaments are more than enough i think.

#22

Yistyy

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Swap loud with NV and I agree. Besides that, decent list.

#24

Psion

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i am a 100T fan first and Saadhak second If it was my opinion Loud would be first, but this isn't opinionated lol

#25

Liem

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Gambit should be higher than EG

#26

Psion

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1st at champs + 2nd at masters > 1st at Masters + 2nd at champs and thats not even including EG at Lock//in

#27

Liem

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EG at lockin was so awful they should lose points for it

#33

Psion

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they played poorly but won a match lol, im not looking at play purely results

#28

ionlyHave1Zuni

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Cooked myself

#38

Psion

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idc what this means tbh

#29

SamBR

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NRG only won 2022 Masters Reykjavik nothing else.

stop it

#30

ionlyHave1Zuni

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What did loud do other than winning champs ?

#37

Psion

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1st, 3rd at champs + 2nd at Lock//in and 2nd, Top 12 and 8 at Masters

#39

ionlyHave1Zuni

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Nobody remembers the second place, dis a whole lotta nothin

#42

Psion

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this is just false

#101

Selfim

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Least biased aspas fan

#36

Psion

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2nd, 2x 12th at champs, Top 8 at lock//in, 1st, 2nd,3rd, and 5th at masters

#31

number2_cNed_fan

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FUT boutta jump up alot this year

#35

Psion

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minimum 1 tier up, max 3

#32

Daddyzin

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1 LOUD
2 OPTIC

#34

Psion

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i am literally a LOUD fan secondly, be objective for once this is why people don't like us
2nd, 2x 12th at champs, Top 8 at lock//in, 1st, 2nd,3rd, and 5th at masters > 1st, 3rd at champs + 2nd at Lock//in and 2nd, Top 12 and 8 at Masters

#40

preston_

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you forgot 2022 ORDER and 2023 bonkers smh

#43

Psion

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oh yeah my bad i'll put them the next time thye make an international event

#49

bronzil_enjoyer

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i think gambit should be 6th

#52

DeluluGavin

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well its based on statistics and since the gambit core couldn't really be in stable condition in 2022 due to the war so its unfortunate really....

#53

Psion

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yeah they were slightly higher if you accounted for regional results because they were 1 spot off making most of the international events so many times

#50

bluwupy

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Why are some teams from 2022? it is core based

#51

DeluluGavin

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core based list

#54

eumph

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how is guard 32? are we counting ascension? they didnt win a series otherwise and smb is lower. atleast they won one series
also f4q is above smb though they didnt win either

#55

Psion

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because the guard PLACED top 8 lol, doesn't matter if they won a game or not, and if u bothered looking at the spreadsheet you'd see that f4q and smb are tied because they both ended 12th

#56

eumph

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dont get snarky with me because you wasted your time on this spreadsheet knowing it has no bearing of actual results

#60

Psion

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I enjoyed making the spreadsheet so idk how you think it was a waste of time

#61

eumph

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you know, i was overly harsh. my apologies

#62

Psion

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ur good bro, looking at placements is the only objective way to rank teams though because everything else is opinionated

#67

yungbasel

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Your emphasis on longevity is opinionated. How long team has been around for has no bearing on how good they are in the context of a ranking. You just decided this for yourself, and as a result, one of the best teams we've ever seen, in the era of the most competitive valorant are ranked below kru and liquid and a bunch of other teams they're clearly better than.

#70

Psion

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"clearly better than" this isn't about being better dude. this is absolving that because it is opinionated it is purely based off results regardless of era because the strength of eras (how strong they are compared to each other) is also opinionated
"in the era of the most competitive valorant" once again, this doesn't matter for my spreadsheet.
fnatic C22-23 are 4th even though they didn't exist at the start of 2022, its literally just how results add up. 1 8th place finish is going to be worth less than 4 12th place finishes in the same way Kru will be higher than a 1-off event winner because of their myriad of appearances

#73

yungbasel

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The strength each era isn't opinionated. This can be measured by the numerical differences between teams performances (too and lowest placements) from each vct year to the next. I swear this isn't a personal attack. But if you had a better clue of how to approach this, you'd have factored that in 👍

#74

Psion

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with what teams would you compare numerical differences? the only way to remove any bias would be to find a team that stayed as a consistent 5 for all 3 years which no team has and use it as the bar
edit: I also think it is much better to do things in-era, which is why like I said in my other comment i used map win% and series win%, if you want that one i can msg u it but it isn't in any way updated or consistent (i updated talon but no one else) nor easily readable, and some teams like 21-22 fnatic and 21-22 liquid i didn't even track map and series win%

#78

Psion

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ps: there are some people who think 2022 was stronger top to bottom than 2023 was, it's literally a debate whether 2022 or 2023 had more depth 1-50 because of how bad tier 2 was in 2023

continue thread →

#57

_angelmrm_

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Where 2020 heretics

#59

Psion

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there weren't international events in 2020

#63

lxd1o_o

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1- loud
2- fnatic
3- abism
4- nrg
5- abism

#64

Psion

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actually I think its

abism
Karmine Corp 2023
Fish123
Sumn FC
Pancada E amigos

#65

Targu1n

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Could you make an explanation of your methodology? Theres a lot of choices that seem arbitrary without getting insight into your decisions

Where do your weightings of champs, master and lock-in come from (how did you come to those number)
How did you decide how much 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc are worth comparatively? (What is the reason behind "devaluing" tied slots [tied 3-4: 120 points, while 3rd + 4th is worth 135])
I assume you split teams into years when their core changes - how do you determine what is the core for evolving teams like fnatic (basically how many players is a team allowed to change in what time frame to still count as the same core for your system)?
Also do you have any plans/ideas on how to deal with the issue brought up above about teams who go 0-2 but still ending up top 8 due to regional performances? (While this is currently international only. Obvious solution is adding regional preformances, but that'd require an entire rework)

I love the idea behind making a table to track teams/cores consistency over the years and can see myself wasting way too much time writing different formula for it already xD

#68

Psion

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A core is 3 players(either on their own or 3 of the original 5 players) so from masters 1 reykjavik and before fnatic was Boaster-magnum mistic , and after that it is derke-boaster-alfajer(as masters 1 reykjavik and masters 2 copenhagen do not share 3 players, the core ends)
the T3-4 means 2 teams tied for the 3rd 4th spots, like what happened at berlin 2021, where there was no double elim bracket so 100T and G2 both ended Tied at 3-4 and the general methodology used by all forms of competition (even riot) is to award both teams the amount 4th would get(4th would get 60).
My methodology for divying points up (1st-2nd, etc) is that each spot (besides top 32 at lock//in, ignore that its a 1 off) it worth 10 more than the spot above it, but i also value getting a podium spot (3rd), and making it to the finals (top 2), so there is an extra 5 points between 3rd and 2nd and between 3rd and 4th.
for Masters being worth 80% of a champs, and lock//in worth 75% of a champs is because of matches played and teams at those events. Masters events with the exception of masters berlin always have less teams than champs, and champs is also where the final trophy is lifted. so 12th at masters (besides berlin) would mean going out in without winning a match, while 12th at champs is winning a match, and Lock//in is worth 5% less than a masters because it had no regional stage before it, meaning a team like 100T could get top 8 just through getting an easier bracket (which they did)|
I also did it so for most cases, masters results gained points as if 1 match lower than champs (4th at masters is 48 while 5tt-6th at champs is 50) because champs has more teams and is overall more competitive

#80

Targu1n

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Cores: ah ok so overlap would be allowed; yea that would have been how I would have done it for best "cores" too and is nice and intuitive

With the tied I was more referring to how tournaments that have tied slots lose some points since you dont take the middle value between 3 and 4 for a tied slot, but just eyeballing it I dont think it ends up mattering at all

Point distribution: Masters/Lockin placement being worth 1 less than a Champs placement is interesting; ill def think about that if I get around to making my own version in ~2 weeks
I think the core problem with the point distribution will always be if Champs is more competitive than Masters (different qualifier forms, lcq teams being at a huge disadvantage, etc.) so thats always gonna be an arguable aspect regardless how you do it

Thank ya for sharing your thoughts

#81

Psion

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more teams just means more competition, regardless of how good the teams are (with lock//in being an exception because after 2 matches 24 teams are eliminated while only 1 per group is eliminated in masters/champs)

#87

Targu1n

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But masters also have better qualifiers, whats the difference between Fnatic having to play EMEAs 4th place vs Apacs 4th if we're assuming all teams are equal

its why it makes it so hard since they have different qualifying forms that filter teams differently so its not a 1 to 1 comparison

the main reason I prefer champs despite having the worse qualifier is because teams dont get placed into top 8 instantly (and then you dont have a loud situation from masters this year)

I was gonna experiment % steps for the reward of points (so everything except for 1st place is worth more in Champs without having to decide an arbitrary number, but also not punishing the winner of the tournament) but Ill test that in 2 weeks once im done with my exams ~~ironically procrastinating maths by thinking about maths instead xD~~

#89

Psion

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the difficulty of the qualifier is void imo, especially in the Partnerships era where 1/3 of the teams made champs last year and literally every team competed at Lock\in .
also yes teams starting in playoffs makes the competition way less than champs

#90

Targu1n

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but they cant be void since otherwise the extra competition of champs is also void xD all champs does is move part of the qualifier into the tournament. Its still the same 4-5th place teams that get added into the tournament that didnt make it to masters.
All teams that made it to masters had to prove that they were better than those teams already

The only reason it leads to upsets is because not all regions are equally competitive when it comes to their non top teams (see in the past c9 and liquid making it out of groups, knocking out Pacific/Americas teams, despite being lcq), but thats becoming less and less of an issue as time goes on luckily

#92

Psion

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the qualifiers for champs historically are masters events, not their own qualifiers. idk the format for this season so i can't really say

#66

yungbasel

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Bad methodology. Teams that have never won shit are ranked higher than newer teams that actually won stuff.

Using fnatic 2022 Copenhagen as the same fnatic in 2023 is also strange.

Old liquid and kru ranked near to each other when that iterstion of liquid played them at every tournament and destroyed them is also strange.

Edit: on second read through. This is really bad and I think you should stop (no offense).

There are so many statistical and logical flaws in this.

Eg the current champions (now defunct) are ranked below liquid and kru, simply because your weighting is on longevity.

#69

Psion

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Fnatic had the core of Alfajer-boaster-derke at copenhagen 2022, so why wouldn't it be considered the same derke-boaster-alfajer core in 2023?
KRU have made it to every international event besides 1, they also got ok or decent placements(top 8) at masters berlin and copenhagen (top 12) which are events liqud didn't even qualify for(this doesn't mention the 2023 events liquid couldn't make because they didn't exist). At events both liquid and Kru made, Liquid are + 52, Kru have made it to 4 other events and are +79.75 at those events
Liquid and EG are basically equal so you are really nitpicking there its half a point difference
also a team being newer doesn't mean anything, this isn't power rankings where how good or recent a team is matters

#72

yungbasel

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First off, criticisms aside, I like what you're trying to build, and it's good that you're open to debate.

There is no knit picking going on. Based on your reply to my other comment above, I'm left trying to ascertain what your objective is in building this list. You've called it a top teams of all time list, but there are some big problems and inconsistencies with the logic you're using which makes the whole thing fall flat.

Cores: What is a team? as we know, teams keep changing. You have a more than 1 iterations of some teams (fnatic) that have undergone changes and only 1 of others that have also undergone changes in the same time period. Like drx, like kru. Very inconsistent and throws the list out of whack because the current edition of fnatic if based on results should be top 2 if we look at their performance Vs other teams at international events. But you've lumped them with the Enzo / mystic era just because the core is the same. As you've done with drx and kru who also had changes but kept the same core. Can you not see the problem with this?

What would make more sense if you treated each team as absolute / married to the org, and account for all their performances. Because obviously no one can be bothered to create an interstion of every single team.

Your weighting on longevity is arbitrary and has nothing to do with teams performance Vs each other. It would be better if you get rid of it and use a proportional approach that looks at performance or points per match played, subject to a reasonable minimum. This deals with any issues around new teams like 2023 EG not ranking high enough despite their performance and stats showing otherwise.
If the emphasis is on performance at these events. Kru qualifying to most shouldn't have them anywhere near liquid as they have qualified in from a worse region and performed worse at every international event, RELATIVE TO THE NUMBER OF ROUNDS / MATCHES played. When it comes to champs 21, as they both came 4th, that should be impetus to add a head to head weighting, if this is really going to be a comprehensive list.

Again, You mentioned it's not about how good a team is or a power ranking, what is it exactly? No need to reinvent the wheel on what a ranking system for a sport should be based on dude. Wins and losses relative to the matches they've played should be the driving force, but you seem too focused on placements, which is a bit silly because we have teams placing top 8 at LANs even though they won 0 games, at the international tournaments that you say you're only counting.

I could go on..

#77

Psion

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first off my bad on including kru for lock\in i completely forgot they used to have xand and axeddy, but DRX have always had buzz/mako/stax as their core of 3 so idk what your issue there is.
head to head rating is irrelevant long term as teams will be divided by decades(assuming valorant lasts that long) so there is no reason to include it now if we have to backtrack later.
There are 2 ways to think about this, which i'll call weighted and unweighted (like GPA in the US). my spreadsheet is unweighted, it only includes results at international events. I had an older one that included map and series winrates(this was before champs 2023 so fnatic is lower), as well as domestic results and it turned out as 1st Loud 2nd DRX 3rd NRG 4th Fnatic 5th Gambit (this gambit included their 2022 results domestically so they are higher because they were always 1 off) 6 Navi 7 PRX (PRX were very very rocky early on even though they'd had the same 3 for almost forever) 8 Sen 9 Acend(acend did VERY bad at masters 2 '21 quals and at stage 1 of 2022) and 10 KRU. I understand what you are talking about, but there are multiple ways to look at everything without 1 way being right or wrong

#71

Er3ngenes1s

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This is some hot A$$ list. How optic or envy core on top when they basically got grouped 2/3 times in a total of 3 champions tournament? Also how is loud in #2 when they were basically irrelevant in 2021 and also had 2 terrible masters tournament when the title says "top teams of all time" . Thirdly, How is DRX ABOVE FNC when the results just speak of themselves? At last, how is xerxia above Acend but below EG when both ACEND and EG won champs? don't have anything against u but ur spreadsheet and data just has infinite flaws and i just mentioned some of em above

#75

Psion

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are you forgetting EG got 2nd at Masters 2 while acend got 8th at berlin?
edit: also if you actually look at the spreadsheet all of these questions are answered lmao, it's not perfect but these complaints aren't real

#91

Er3ngenes1s

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in that sense EG should be higher than Loud cuz loud got bombed out at tokyo but somehow u placed loud above ??? Saying " these complaints arent real" just shows u arent ready to take criticism/feedback from others for the thing u have done

#93

Psion

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if you look around this comment section you can see me taking criticism and feedback lol, Loud have gotten 1st and 2nd at champs, 2nd at masters and 2nd at Lock\in and you are trying to compare them to EG

#94

Er3ngenes1s

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Are ignoring the 2 masters tournament they bombed out of? tokyo and copenhagen? if yes, then as i said ur data is a complete flaw

#95

Psion

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how would bombing out influence anything? you don't LOSE points for making an internatioanl event lol

#96

Er3ngenes1s

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how would bombing out influence anything?

it does affect ur title of this forum "top teams of all time". considering u have included the consistency parameter too

#98

Psion

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the consistency parameter is purely for the regions, not teams and its just total results/ # of teams from a region, besides loud consitently do well at the start and end and suck in the middle, so they ARE consistent lmao

#103

Er3ngenes1s

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even sucking in the middle aint consistent, u have to be top 4 every event

#104

Psion

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consistent and consistently good are different things

#97

Er3ngenes1s

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.

#99

Psion

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dementia has kicked in i guess

#100

Er3ngenes1s

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my internet is shit

#105

Psion

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happens

#76

Nilonesia

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Me when comments are brain damage

#79

Psion

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lmao

#83

zardinez

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Can you dm me the spreadsheet?

#85

Psion

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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mQz_oZ5ZOeTKksdw98Z8NrJP7xwtP1JHRv1NZxr7DRg/edit?usp=sharing

#84

Mozzarellas

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So drx is above fnc cause they got a free pass to international tournaments every year by playing in apac?

#86

Psion

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they made it out of groups everytime but once, lets not act like they went 0-2 every international lmao, also they played in korea not apac

#102

frappzlul

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would be interesting to see this done with the players

chronicle would be first considering he's only ever placed 1st 2nd 1st 1st and 4th at an international event lmao

#106

Psion

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that'd be hard to do because of igls