He's done absolutely nothing on the Tier 1 level since being named the next big star in APAC. None of these guys are bad players but at least Keznit Keloqz and Scream are in franchising

Ya and ur rating other teams that have beaten other teams. Paper Rex were suck and they won that specific Bo3 but if ur gonna allow yourself to rank teams that lost earlier above teams that went farther then no way should Optic be behind them. Paper Rex were sick that stage but were in a perfect meta and were definitely less "coordinated" which is the only word u used to justify this random system.

Entry: Buzz/Foxy9 pick ur poison
Flex: Stax
Initiator: Xeta
Controller: Mako
Sentinel: K1ng

This is also IMO how I think DRX should look by this time next year minus k1ng+Buzz at sentinel

Who cares

Paper Rex more coordinated than Optic in copenhagen LMFAO

I guess I forgot about CS but even then I wouldn't say they were a top 20 team in CS's total history, I'm pretty sure Dota is the only one you can say they had legit goat level success which is sad seeing how much they invest and make mediocre teams. Like legit have been in Valo for ages, never made a top 8 team in NA. League team had one great run last year then they fucked up relations with their star player. CS has been barren for 3 years now. Just a mediocre org when it comes to actually winning.

Sykko twitter used to go crazy on XSET but since joining SEN idk...

Aren't they like 100% backed on having been one of the best Dota teams ever and it's just never translated into an actual other game?

I would love to see Potter with a more talented team, but her roster construction and out of game decision making has been abysmal. Keeping reformed and apoth who have shown their level already, picking up BcJ, putting him on smokes, then subbing him out after being their best player? She actually has turned this team around a ton since this time last year but she needs to put in some more work at the end of 2023 for me to have faith in this team at all.

Unironically Leaf has been by far the best NA performer bar maybe s0m or Asuna ATM. It's crazy to think, though, that there's really only 14-15 guys in franchising that are from NA and would've been called T1 level players at the start of 2023.

Based on 2023?

Duelist: Derke
Flex: Chronicle
Initiator: Leo
Controller: Boaster
Sentinel: Nats

Second team of:
Sayf
Cloud
Shao
Ange1
Alfajer

Suygetsu would knock the sentinel guys down if we're including champs but rn his form has been average but not what we've expected from him as of late and not having one of the FUT trio felt off but we just need more games from them.

You gotta give it to them, their ceiling is insanely high. They have one of only three IGLs that have won on the international level, a guy who has the ability to be the best in the world, a young fragger on a new role, and 2 super solid support players. Not saying they will be better than M80 or break into that S tier, but if you simulate this world 100 times I think DSG turns into the best team in NA more times than people would think.

Keloqz
L1nk
Keznit
Scream
Lakia

Clear maybe? I know he's got tons of potential but has direct role clash and was probably their worst performer of the core 4

All Time and currentviper stats. Guy is basically one tricking her at this point and either top rating, ACS, or KD every map it seems. Dude destroyed NRG with it and only has looked slightly bad in that fracture stomping where LEV as a whole got shit on. IMO Suygetsu is the main competition but he is for sure top 3 in my eyes.

I mean they played both TSM and M80 twice, once with riku once with Exalt. They got shit on both times against M80 and looked much worse against TSM the second time around with Riku. Before that they looked eye test wise better either way. If Exalt was not a good fit for the team and they wanted to move on with those results than Riku obviously isn't the right fit given the two games they played. And for that last point I don't think Stewie or Yay care that much about salary. DSG is already reported paying better than most teams, and any team that's willing to pay more probably isn't going after those guys. I think if they actually want to compete this year they know DSG is their best chance.

The team has also gotten dramatically worse and changed roles every game Riku has been there. He's obviously not a bad player by any means but it's pretty obvious that this group isn't the one to win them ascension. Their best chance is going for starpower like Yay or Stewie to raise their ceiling.

Ya lil bro one bo3 takes top 3 initiator ITW from an already too low rating to a mediocre one ur really smart man

Ya bro crashies is for sure <90 man noyn def isn't delusional BR

I wouldn't say only lol Ange and Will fragged like crazy and Trick back then was good for calling

Didn't Trick also build the roster after DZ lol? I feel like this just sounds like a whiny guy post getting dropped which is a bad way to sell yourself for teams that want to pick u up next window.

it's Bjor an actually good sentinel player

Don't forget traditional sentinel players who can play their comfort role more.

if only RB was good in important international matches.

The roles are still important in solo q at most levels, but at a pro level it is much more of an archetype of player, similar to how the NBA works. In the NBA it's no longer one of 5 positions you play, but rather archetypes, whether you're a defensive shooter or a playmaker, you may still be in the same position but you are completely different players. In val the roles are more like.

OP specialist: Jett, Chamber sometimes Sage or Omen (Think Yay Cned Saya)
Entry Duelist: Raze, Jett, Neon sometimes Phoenix (Think Aspas Derke Foxy9)
Duelist flex: Raze Kayo Skye sometimes Phoenix Sage Breach or Neon, usually your most flexible fragger (Think Zekken Molsi Jingg)
Flash Initiator: Breach Kayo Skye sometimes viper or sage. Often IGLs (Think Saadhak Chronicle Stax)
Info Initiator: Sova Fade sometimes breach or viper (Think Crashies Leo Xeta)
Controller: Controller agents and sometimes Kayo or Sage (Think Marved Boaster Mak0)
Sentinel: KJ Cypher Viper and sometimes sage (Think Less Suygetsu K1ng)

So even though Zekken and Saadhak are both intiaitor players, they are completely different types of players even if their "role" is the same. These go even deeper depending on meta like sentinel intiator players such as FNS or Sheydos who play breach and sentinels, or sentinel entries like Alfa, Sova Raze players like Sinatraa or Nukkye, and Flash controller players like gMd or dephh. There's a ton of different archetypes of players to the point where having 4 roles isn't the way to think about it in competitive.

tuyz also looks really smart on the character which helps a lot, there's def gonna be a learning curve for lower level teams with IGLs that aren't as good. Very confident that s0m can become very good at it tho because it fits his playstyle.

Obviously you want clear to develop but he performed poorly last split and Yay is literally the best fragger in NA. Even if Clear reaches his peak next split he'd probably still be worse than what Yay is. It's a no brainer in my mind especially if Yay isn't asking for too much. It would obviously suck for clear and you'd feel super bad for his growth in the future but he would be back and I know plenty of teams would be very happy to have him.

I mean historically that's not true at all

I know Xeppaa has some pretty clean movement but he's a much better initiator than he is duelist.

Leaf is also ass at Raze while Zellsis is one of the best in NA. Zellsis literally fits this current squad perfectly because on Raze maps he can play Raze(or Xeppa can and he goes to flex) and on Jett maps he can be a more supportive player which he also does well. They have 2 of the better KJ players on their team who also play the two most important duelists separately. Those two work really well together especially if Leaf is going to continue to play Skye which is the one flash initiator Zellsis doesn't play.

I mean look at FPX and Optic, two of the three best teams last year who had multiple players playing multiple roles. The only player of those two teams that stayed in one role was Yay. Zellsis not being able to play Jett isn't a problem at all if he's able to play nine agents comfortably over all 4 roles. It's for sure better in the long run to have someone like that instead of a player that only plays within one role. That's literally what ended up being the downfall of Sen and PRX, players that could play 1-2 agents very comfortably but didn't play enough roles to support meta shifts. Zellsis is a meta proof player, how many guys are there in NA that can play well under any meta?
KJ Jett meta he can play KJ or a flash initiator
chamber meta he could play Raze or Kayo(two of the three best agents alongside chamber in that meta)
Double controller meta he can play viper
Double duelist meta he can play literally every duelist but Jett
He would only be fucked if a meta was chamber jett sova centric which doesn't look like it'll happen soon

I really don't see ur argument at all when most historical data and his overall play has dictated the exact opposite of what you're claiming.

is there any actual reasoning for that last quote or is that just your personal opinion because many top level teams and championship winners have had players play multiple roles on multiple maps and be successful. A good half of the best raze players in the world don't play Jett nor do they need to, I don't think it's a problem at all lol.

three of his four best agents are kayo raze and KJ what are u on about lol

his raze kayo and kj are all pretty great like top tier in north America on all 3 agents over 3 different roles plus the ability to play shit like neon and phoenix that not many duelists play still.

ya he does dumb shit a lot of IGLs do that, Ange1 does it every other round, FNS had a bit of int this go around, Saadhak played a dogshit raze. That's not what he should be viewed off of. His KD was still ahead of all of 100T bar Asuna and his assist per round was above everyone but asuna as well. At the end of the day he did a damn good job of IGLing and beat the third best team in Americas coming into the group play. He deserves a ton of props for not only doing that but also making controversial but beneficial role changes and spearheading two cracked duelists with 2 non native English speakers. I don't get what the dude has to do to at least be considered above average lol.

Dephh and Sykko literally is one of the best IGL coach duos in the world I don't understand why they get so much hate after one bad game as if FNS and Saadhak have never dropped a game here or there.

my point is that even if hes not FNS level people were calling him worse than Boostio and IGLs in T2 because he lost to the eventual world champs and they have pre conceived bias that makes no sense

Calling Dephh the worst IGL in franchising after 1 game LMFAO

ya has anyone debated this?

What were Cryo Zekken and Ayrin before dephh??

Ayrin was a raze main with flexibility concerns who looked on the brink of being dropped before Dephh shaped him into an ultra flexible co-IGL

Zekken was on Noble and was good but not that hyped up, only really known because he had beaten LG. Went from good sova raze player in T2.5 to top top tier flex player ITW

Cryo was obviously hyped up but he became a legit contender for top 5 fragger in the world, you have to give Dephh credit for that.

He's genuinely one of the best talent scouts in NA and his hate is so absurdly dumb I just don't get it.

Skuba and Zander have gotten a lot of love this split but Wippie has been arguably better than Skuba recently and is playing at a top tier level on his secondary role. His viper has an argument for best in T2, and his astra is also disgusting. Fantastic player who is still being slightly underrated IMO.

No offense to S0M because he played really well but do you really think that s0m would be that much better than Skuba if Skuba was put on NRG? s0m definitely stepped into a perfect situation as a controller player that I think a lot of people would succeed in, similar to tuyz with Loud. Both played great, both are talented and for sure are good, but when you get a top 3 IGL ITW and a stacked team around you it's very easy to play well.

Yes ur very correct man Marved has average smoke utility usage and only was good because he can aim well

How many players internationally do u take over Marved and Bang asides from Mako and Pancada? I feel like they have the best top two outside of APAC who obviously have multiple cracked ones but Bang would be best in EU and both would be second best in LATAM.

Tigg and Brawk deserve to be in that convo as well if we're talking specifically Sova

Pwny is a better duelist than Reduxx and Reduxx recently and historically has been more likely to play cypher kj and kayo than Pwny its a much better fit with him on sentinel

I heard something abt next month but I have absolutely no clue

I have a feeling Reduxx replaces Randy on full time sentinel duty with maybe some flex to Kayo or double duelist on some maps.

Sova: Zekken, Trent, Crashies
Kayo: Zellsis, Jonahp, Asuna
Skye: Xeppaa, BcJ, Crashies
Fade: BcJ, Trent, Xeppaa
Breach: Jonahp, C0m, Flyuh
Gekko: I saw Fiziq play it I guess lol
Overall: Crashies, Trent, Xeppaa

There is no fix, they're all mediocre players who all sit in the bottom half of talent in EMEA. It just needs to be a whole roster overhaul. I know Keloqz has his moments and Zeek used to be one of the best, but it just feels like a team that's living in 2021.

I mean of the talent you stated only one of them has proven to be international level with another team. They all are individually good but I wouldn't say they're better than XSET, Optic, Tgrd, Faze, etcs old core's. I think them hovering around 6-10 in NA made sense but obviously when you dip this low you need to make changes. IMO Bdog and Moose are their only players that they've had where I feel like they would succeed and be stars on top tier teams.