actual problem

#1

Effluxi

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the issue is we haven't fixed that there's no counterplay to getting util dumped and rushed

we've just made less util so it happens all at once instead of sporadically through the round.

If anything the issue is actually even worse because sentinels suck now (except on haven ig) so you can't punish 4 guys from running it down util dumping you and entrying all at once and overwhelming whichever site they want. There's no reason to slow down and find the setup because you can always steamroll it with a util dump.

We didn't fix the problem. We condensed it.

#2

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one

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The genius in this statement will shock vlr

#4

Effluxi

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most things shock vlr tbf

#5

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one

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Well this probably is extra

#3

chinesesalesmen

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smart cookie

#6

Josuke7

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Valorant ain't that deep dawg
Just throw util and aim

#7

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one

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...

#10

Effluxi

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??? when you are aiming and throwing util is pretty important too

#8

themaniel

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this is why every round is just a fireball of abilities and gunfights and the whole round is over in 5 seconds

nobody even defaults that much because of how long the cooldowns are

#9

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one

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A great take

#11

Effluxi

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essentially. imo maps not giving you options to play around util is the original issue that rito has just built another on top of but that's much more speculative

#12

derp64

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how do you propose we fix the problem without valorant losing its identity? its an undeniable truth that one reason people prefer valorant over cs is the utils.

#13

Effluxi

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maps need work so displacement util doesn't just get you killed on half the spots and more molly-like util needs to have counterplay that isn't just get displaced, especially when there's so many aoe molly-like effects. There's gotta be a reason why Tejo made the problem glaring besides his cooldown being ridiculous.

If I'm not mistaken, CS simultaneously has more cover to move between, better displaced fighting AND less displacing util. It's probably worth looking at that relationship too.

#16

serot

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tejo rockets should be shootable
easy counterplay

#26

Effluxi

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I do think that's probably the solution for most damaging mollies but I'm not sure i like it in practice

#15

serot

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util refresh time back to what it was
sentinels get a minor buff across the board

utility overall already got nerfed, so its better than before regardless

yoru needs a pretty big nerf, duelists need to be nerfed slightly overall, especially neon and waylay

#18

voidmeow

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agreed

#24

Effluxi

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imo Yoru needs -1 flash so he's not trampling the flash initiators. Waylay and Neon would be fine with real sentinels and initiator cooldowns, and are a problem specifically because they can self initiate when there's no opposing sentinel setup and little allied supporting util

#28

serot

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I think yoru 2 flash is fine, 1 would be kinda unplayable as a duelist
maybe a flash duration or pop speed nerf would be better

the bigger issue is his TP imo
it allows him to be so flexible in positioning and have so much global impact, and you have 2 of them too
-1 TP means less deep line loiter time and makes thoughtful TP usage more important

#30

Effluxi

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I actually think the best TP nerf is to make it so average agents don't get instantly murdered when they're forced off certain angles, which is a map design thing so yeah it ain't happening

#14

Zeah

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bro im here to see dumb takes and delusional fan not actual solid argument

#27

Effluxi

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maybe im the one in the wrong place then LOL

#17

voidmeow

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agree and disagree

slower playstyles DO work, and i think depending on nuances can be better, and vice versa.
the notion of "just hit the site with all your util" (no matter how slow you played the round) is true though, and very dumb at that so i agree. i have no idea why riot made the agent-wide changes to every role in the game with nerfing classes, literally nobody asked nor thought it was a good idea. it 100% takes a lot of creativity out of the game.

senti's ARE good right now, but probably in the worst state they've ever been, so i somewhat agree. i think teams need to get more creative with their own comps because specifically veto and kj are pretty broken right now and i think it could help a LOT of struggling teams.

#20

serot

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slow play is not even that rewarding anymore
sentinels getting nerfed actually made the utility problem worse
teams arent even trying to break sentinel util with initator util now since nobody plays sentinels
instead all of it is being used on the execute, especially since it doesnt even refresh on time anyway

#21

voidmeow

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i just said they do work, and that depending on nuances can be better (what comp you're playing against, playstyle, map, etc)
i agree with your other points though

#22

mondely

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they just need to fix the sentinels. give them some buffs:

Bring vyse flash back
stop the dumb cypher camera sound and revert his trips back
give killjoy her old reactivation timing
increase deadlock barrier mesh hp

#25

Effluxi

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I don't mind the shooting counterplay on vyse flash cuz it is intuitive for a deployable to work like that and it still gives info - but removing the info flash too is literally nonsensical and makes the previous point irrelevant because why break and give info instead of just turning.

Idk about revert Cypher directly but definitely the new trips are a joke ive seen people not even realise they were there and still break them before getting revealed

#23

BoredBystander

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It takes time to find the balance tbf, before this explosive plays it was the util dumping plays so hopefully they'll get it 'balance' in the future patch.

#29

Nigellomeister

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vlr isn't ready for the cold hard truth

#31

Galactc

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Maybe it's just me but I've never thought of the util dumping as an issue with the game to begin with this whole thing has felt like it was unnecessary

#32

Effluxi

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It definitely was during Tejo meta at least where you could flood entire sites or lanes with util multiple times a round. It definitely wasn't bad enough after the Tejo nerfs for this disproportionate a response though.