if they had made the finals and won champs instead of EG then surely that would make them the least “flukiest” (as in you cant discredit their tournament run like you can with other teams) and hardest road surely?
they were in a group of death with drx navi and liquid, barely made it to playoffs and faced fnatic twice (tournament favorites and 2x international winners) , prx (#2 favorite) , edg (revenge game from tokyo) , eg (tokyo finalist)
just no. fnc tokyo would still be higher and plus barely making it to playoffs and then winning the whole thing through lowers is already pretty flukey. also back then edg wasnt that good and navi wasnt good and only made it bc of the 2 lcq spots and liquid shit the bed so their group was not in fact the group of death.
loud collapsed in tokyo so they had less expectations in champs than liquid did
yeah liquid was predicted to make it out but im saying that they played horribly when champs came around. navi was like the worst team attending the tournament and loud collapsing in tokyo would make their champs run even more flukey as it shows how inconsistent they are
liquid shit the bed sure but navi clearly leveled up and looked much better than they did in LCQ. they went toe to toe with DRX and LOUD and gave us banger games so nonetheless it was a hard group for LOUD
Tokyo: something(Pacific MVP) was not there, Demon1 (future champs MVP) didnt practice with the team because of VISA issues, LOUD (Americas #1) was dead with internal problems
As soon as these asterisks disappeared, FNC did worse than all 3 teams at Champions 2023
1- EG (Demon1 practiced with the team!)
2- PRX (something was there!)
3- LOUD (internal problems almost solved!)
4- FNC
every time a brazil team performs bad it just has to be because of internal problems or other extrinsic influences. the loud internal problems with less and aspas were never solved and thats why he left after 2023, u cant have it both ways. (You cant use it as a reason to base all their bad performances on and then ignore it when they start to perform better)
its safe to say that having something there would have been prx a lot better but i doubt it would be enough to beat fnc especially since prx barely even beat edg and nrg (both were decided by OTs).
also the no demon1 practice is a stupid argument as he only missed a few days of practice and he made it there a few days before tokyo started, (teams only arrived in tokyo around a week before it starts so before that he still had practice with eg), also he had many many many days of practice once he arrived inbetween matches.
this is just a baseless false narrative
the loud internal problems with less and aspas were never solved
You dont even know what the problems actually were, there were official reports about it and aspas and Less NEVER had beef. LOUD practiced in a tight kitchen with internet problems that they had to improvise as an office. LOUD's problems were mainly management and infrastructure
The rest of your text is just "nah, they wouldnt beat Fnatic anyways..." When there was an entire World Championship right after Masters where all three teams (EG, PRX, LOUD) performed better than FNC when they didnt have those asterisks anymore
You want to say that a tournament that had CGRS playing on stage replacing an international league MVP is the least flukey tournament of all time?
The rest of your text is just "nah, they wouldnt beat Fnatic anyways..." When there was an entire World Championship right after Masters where all three teams (EG, PRX, LOUD) performed better than FNC when they didnt have those asterisks anymore
and there was an entire tournament before tokyo were fnc was the better team when loud didnt have these problems.
"You want to say that a tournament that had CGRS playing on stage replacing an international league MVP is the least flukey tournament of all time?" - having a sub doesnt make a team significantly worse, case in point is heretics with patitek. also why would 1 sub make an entire tournament flukey, what a dumb argument that is grounded in what ifs and could haves.
I remember saadhak denying the aspas and less beef for obvious reasons but i never remember anything about internet issues, could u link me a source that the internal problems were internet related??
and there was an entire tournament before tokyo were fnc was the better team when loud didnt have these problems.
A kickoff single elim tournament where the entire LOUD team was sick and FNC had the most prep time of all teams. Less had to go straight to the hospital after the games and take serums between maps to not pass out, aspas was going through phisyotherapy for his back and arms, those were LOUD's best players, and even then FNC almost got reverse swept
Its not FNC's fault of course, but it just does put asterisks in these tournaments, congrats for the win but its not the most dominant mythical avengers run of all time, its just not
I remember saadhak denying the aspas and less beef for obvious reasons but i never remember anything about internet issues, could u link me a source that the internal problems were internet related??
I would have to link several LOUD vlogs and old clips from their livestreams, all in portuguese where they talk about it. There is the official report about his departure of LOUD:
(allat)
"What practically the entire Brazilian VALORANT community was waiting for happened this Monday (11): aspas announced his departure from LOUD. But what were the reasons for this? Faced with public uncertainty on both sides, The Enemy sought answers and obtained exclusive information about the case (see below).
First of all, it's important to understand that aspas already wanted to leave LOUD after the VALORANT Champions 2022 title, just like Sacy and pANcada did, but was convinced to stay with the organization in 2023. He liked the project presented by the Brazilian team, but lost confidence over time.
This is because aspas, initially, was dissatisfied with the structure set up by LOUD in the United States. The organization had some initial issues, but they were able to resolve them between the middle and end of the season—by which time the decision had already been made. The player's father, who manages his career, even went to the country during the international league finals to not only enjoy the trip but also "see for himself" the situation.
Another point was that, despite becoming the only player to be a brand ambassador in the Americas VALORANT scene due to LOUD's influence, he was dissatisfied with some promises that the organization failed to keep, and he became even more dissatisfied."
the loud team was sick before the tournament begun and i cant find anything about less having food poisoning or needing to go to the hospital at all apart from 1 vlr post 3 years ago by you (spent 10 minutes searching btw). if you could link smth that would be appreciated but i undestand if u dont want to and we can agree to disagree.
also why do u think fnc had the most prep time, its not like there was a tournament before lock in and i pressume loud was already in brazil so if anything the brazil teams had the most preperation
I also dont remember anything about aspas and phisyotherapy nor can i find anything about this either, also even if both are true i doubt much would have changed especially since both less and aspas were hard carrying.
about the internal problems for tokyo, just that translation alone isnt enough as it doesnt actually state what the issue was, perhaps the issue was just them performing bad or having bad confidence for all i know.
Do you speak portuguese?
Here is a video from that time where it talks about Less food poisoning and Aspas phisyotherapy only 1 day before the Grand Finals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n70rWI8G8-Q
I could link LOUD vlogs and some livestream clips but if you dont speak portuguese its useless unless i translate everything to you over and over again 😂
i doubt much would have changed especially since both less and aspas were hard carrying.
The game was 14-12 in the FIFTH map, what do you mean it wouldnt have changed, if they were hard carrying with health problems, wouldnt you agree that they would play even better without it?
about the internal problems for tokyo, just that translation alone isnt enough as it doesnt actually state what the issue was, perhaps the issue was just them performing bad or having bad confidence for all i know.
I just gave you the official report about it in english, im not gonna go digging clips in portuguese for you that are basically common knowledge about how trash LOUD is as an org
I could link LOUD vlogs and some livestream clips but if you dont speak portuguese its useless unless i translate everything to you over and over again 😂
there are translations on youtube and i speak spanish so i can undestand a bit.
alright so they both def did have issues that impacted their performance, hard to say if aspas still had these issues during the fnc match since he said he had hand issues during the last 2 maps of drx and then it's hard to ignore less getting iv fluids and going to the hospital, i doubt he would be back at 100% for the grand final so he could and probably would have played better if he didnt have these health issues.
still not enough to say if they would have beat fnc and if they are the better team, ceteris parabis. so its probably best to assume fnc was the better team
Yeah, but I cant look at all those asterisks combined and confidently say that FNC were some mythical perfect gods of valorant olympus with the absolute best tournament run. There are a lot of tournaments in Valorant with asterisks surrounding it, some have more or less, its part of the game, VISA's, health, they cant control it and thats it
But I think there are plenty of more impressive runs considering the levels of competitive integrity of each tournament
gotta disagree with U on the Cgrs part though, he was literally signed because prx needed an official sixth as part of riot rules and he was just a content creator and not really participating in any scrims or much at all
sixth men do not participate in scrims unless for some reason one of the players on the main roster cant (health issues mostly). and yeah while he is a content creator he is still a pro player, infact he was on mith and they were the best thailand team before they disbanded (he was also the best player on the team in rating).
while he def underperformed in tokyo and while prx could have won this is just a hypothetical and its more likely then not that the end result of fnc winning would have remained the same
the fnatic we saw in tokyo was way better than the one at champs, this is just revisionism. saying loud having internal issues places an asterisk is also extremely delusional. they were playing dogshit comps and would've never won on them. there's a reason they performed well in champs after swapping back to normal comps. same for demon1 being late since they only faced fnatic near the end of the tournament and had plenty of practice with him
this is like me saying sentinels madrid has an asterisk on it because wo0t wasn't there
gen.g has an asterisk because miniboo wasn't there
champs has an asterisk because they got less practice from all the roster changes
well yeah, but my point is not : Tokyo is the only fluke and the other tournaments are legit
My point towards the original post (fnc tokyo would still be higher... least flukey...) is that Masters Flukyo is NOT the least flukey tournament of all time, its actually one of the most flukey for having some of the most impactful asterisks combined
This has to be ragebait. Tokyo probably has the most asterisks out of any vct tournament.
Reykjavík and copenhagen had probably more but thats sorta besides the point. only team that was affected was prx and yeah they might have done better if they had something but its decently safe to assume that fnc would have been favourited over them with something if they versed.
What do you even hope to achieve with this conversation. The thesis statement is so loose; i have no idea what you're arguing for.
This website is based on speculation and a whole lot of “what ifs” so I think it makes sense. Hes not trying to achieve anything but hes just trying to put his opinion out here
if loud had won champs instead of EG, would they be seen as a fluke win given their expectations and the opponents they faced?
Loud's expectations was that they were bad (for a champs team) after how poor of a performance they had in Tokyo. They made a great run in Champs, and their stage 1 & Lock//In was great, but they had such low expectations going into the tourney.
Relative to EG, Loud had a harder path and earned their spot. EG did just have a Cinderella run at Tokyo, but was a rare team that maintained the insane form change between tournaments. Look at NRG who went from 4th to getting grouped. Of course, that was for internal reasons, but it shows how many levels of consistency a team needs to get through multiple tourneys.
To answer you question, I don't think it would be seen as any more or less "flukey". I think it would be held as a more impressive run, but not less flukey. Peaking at the right time is what wins most teams their trophies, and this exists between all (e)sports.
Thank you for clarifying, have a great rest of your day.
Also the only real fluke is Ascend. They literally lost their first match and only got past due to shitty riot refs.
EG vs LOUD to me was the real Champs 2023 Grand Finals ngl. Crazy series compared to PRX's.
LOUD's run was one of the hardest ever:
DRX -> TL (elimination game) -> NAVI (elimination game) -> FNC -> PRX -> EDG (elimination game) -> FNC (elimination game) -> EG (elimination game)
meanwhile EG had FUT and FPX in groups, Elon Musk probably rigged it for NA
loud had an underrated year and I'd honestly say they could've 3 peated if a few things went right for them and they didn't troll their comps in tokyo. imo they looked way better than fnatic during regional playoffs and could've beat them with their normal comps
they choked lock in and played two extremely close games against the top 2 in champs
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