Sentinel role is a lie

#1

Anguibok

More I dig in the data more I believe and all of you are wrong when they say the roles are Dulist, Initiator, Sentinel, Controller, Flex is wrong as hell.

Duelist and Controller do exist, I agree.
You are wrong if you talk about "Initiator role", it's reveal/vision role, not Init anymore, Breach and Kayo is in a different role.

What are the 2 last role ? Main Yoru and main Viper :
Yoru role is an offensive playmaker role that fit more the gameplay of a Chamber or a Veto when Yoru isn't played.
Viper role is a defensive strategic-lurk role that fit more the gameplay of a Cypher (And stop saying Viper is a Sentinel because she has stalling power, ANY controller have stalling power)

Think about it for a second : you are on map XXX, and on this map you HAVE to play Chamber. Who do you want to play the "sentinel" named Chamber ?
Your sentinel player that is hyper strategic and love Cypher ?
Or your high aim duelist that love playing Jett and Yoru ?
You understand why I mean there.

So here are the 5 roles :

Duelist (Any duelist)
Off (2nd Duelist, Senti-off)
Reveal (Sova, Fade, Skye, some delu team will add Tejo)
Def (2nd Controller, Senti-def)
Controller (Any controller)

#2

GarbanzoEnjoyer

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So then what's the flash init 😭

#4

Anguibok

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Currently they are dead in the water :c
But it can change depending on the meta, my analysis is that both def and off could have a shot.

To be fair I do think in the past I would have put Breach in the off since he he cant lurker and he his good at taking space like other "Off", but the problem there is that the skill you need to play Breach good, isnt the skill you need to play a duelist or a Viper (And that's why Beside Molsi nobody know how to play Breach efficiently, his winrate was ALWAYS horrible.)

Kayo can be played by strategic player but since you will not lurk with him and I do think his popflash and his rez favor an Highskilled player, and his kit is good at taking space, I would definitely put him in off.

KJ is also in the off/def debate since she will be played a lot with a Viper that will lurk instead of her, but her kit is better at defending.

#8

GarbanzoEnjoyer

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Beside Molsi nobody know how to play Breach efficiently, his winrate was ALWAYS horrible.

Enter bud

Anyway, I understand that you're organizing the roles based on agents that appear to be most successful currently, rather than all the agents that exist. These are two different systems, and the one you criticized is the second one. I agree with your analysis for this meta though

#11

Anguibok

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If Breach where played more I would change the analysis but since he is really dead, I can focus on the one that work, it's the first year in Val where I beleive pro team arent fully out of the understanding of the meta

#3

Germy

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so flash inis just dont exist anymore? u mention breach/kayo in a diff role and then completely leave them out of roles. i agree they are diff from sova/fade/tejo but they are also played... i would put roles as

Primary duelist
Flex (flash ini, yoru)
Scan (fade, sova)
Lurk (sentinel/viper/astra)
Primary smokes (Omen, Astra, brim)

#5

Anguibok

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so flash inis just dont exist anymore?

Kinda, if you check #4 I did make a more in depth analysis.
To be short, yes Breach doesnt exist anymore, he is dead in the meta,
No for Kayo, Kayo can be use by playmaker player with a shade of duelist.

I really think we shouldnt call a role "Flex", it's a lazy way to frame it that never stick to the reality

#6

GarbanzoEnjoyer

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This might be a point for a separate thread but imo the concept of roles is too forced in val

For example Yoru/Neon, Yoru/Iso, Chamber/Jett and Phoenix/Neon all play vastly different from one another but I haven't seen any role definition that would properly separate them

Realistically there's a much larger number of specific archetypes that include just 2-3 agents each, with overlap

#7

SENfns

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roles are duelist, smokes, recon, flash and anchor/lurker depending on the half
yoru falls under the flash category

#9

Anguibok

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Doesnt really work, they are a lot of composition :

without a flash, (11%)
composition where the solorecon is the flash, (8%)
composition where the soloduel is the soloflash, (6%)
So at least 25% of comp

#10

SENfns

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just because comps refuse to utilise a role doesn't mean the role doesn't exist

#12

Anguibok

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Who is the flasher in NRG ? No player has played flash more than twice

#13

SENfns

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ethan plays kayo?
mada plays yoru?

its a role and it exists

#20

Anguibok

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Then it's not a role :X
NRG have 3 game with 0 flash on 7 games

It's not a role

#21

SENfns

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a role doesn't need to be played to exist stop being retarded

#24

Anguibok

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WTF ? how do you define role ?

I'm trying to define the 5 roles of valo

#27

Ultia

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If a team decides to run 5 controllers, does that mean that the game only has the controller role?

#34

Anguibok

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If 25% of comp are 5 controller, then you have to frame another way to define role. The only role that exist is controller works only if 5 controller areplay in 95% of case

If 25% of team doesnt play flasher this mean flasher isnt a role. If your model doesnt work for 25% of case your model isnt good

#14

targuin

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ethan is quite literally known for his flashes

#23

Anguibok

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He played 2 games of flash on 7...

#25

targuin

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Due to yoru being the best flash currently (which isnt suitable for an IGL unless youre Ticey)
If Skye and Kayo become the meta again youll see him back on flash a lot more

But also 2/7 is quite a significant number when youre trying to create a definition

#35

Anguibok

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My bro I can assure you that if a player plays 2 game out of 7 a duelist nobody will consider him a duelist x)

But yeah I agree in another meta the flash role could have exist

#26

itoktobenotok

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This is nonsense
why there is a role called flash
Flash is too specific to be set as a whole role alone
flash is one type of areal imposing negative effect ability the same category with like Breach stun
the con about it is the effect cannot penetrate through wall
so in a environment with many obstacles flash can only clear small area but the pro is fast execution(only duelist have this type of flash) which fit for duelist playstyle

SO LET BE CLEAR, yoru is duelist because

teleport is an survival enhanced ability (duelist often have better survival trick: reyna catch soul to escape, iso have shield)
fast execution flash (duelist have some form of area imposing neg effect but it should not be too wide but make up to it is fast execution)
clone is some clown bullshit tricks
util is very flex most use for getting info but the design purpose originally must be yoru see the whole site and decide a safe place to go out and kill enemies with the advantage of knowing the enemies position while they don't know his which exactly like the way how Jett entry --> A way to safe entry

#29

SENfns

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the duelist role i was thinking of is more of a dive duelist
yoru can be a hybrid if he's being setup lol thats why some teams run solo yoru

#32

itoktobenotok

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I think you can divide duelist in two type, not if he can't dive he not a duelist:

Duelists rely on an ability which enhance survivability: Yoru, Iso, Reyna, Phoenix
Duelists rely on an ability which enhance movement: Jett, Neon, Waylay, Raze

And you can see all duelist have a pattern in common:

a skill or more that ENHANCE INDIVIDUAL STATS (survivability, movement):
-Yoru teleport and his util moving in invincible
-Iso shield & util with 2 walls on his side
-Reyna heal & escape and empress mode
-Phoenix have heal and a second life util
-Jett dash and updraft
-Neon run and dash
-Waylay fly in and retreat
-Raze satchel jump
a skill or more that IMPOSE NEG EFFECT/DMG or OBSTRUCT or CHECK INFO an area. they are AREAL MANIPULATION often seen in init or controller with FAST EXECUTION but must be nefted in some way or not(rare):
-Yoru flash
-Iso moving wall blocks bullets & orb that weaken people
-Reyna flash
-Phoenix flash, wall, molly (An example of neft: Phoenix molly throw range is trash compare to brimstone)
-Jett smoke
-Neon stun
-waylay slow and ult like a breach
-raze grenade, bot, rocket

Duelist also famous for their fire power enhancement skill but not all have it:
Jett knives / Neon laser / raze rocket
Yoru have clone is very weird skill not fit any type maybe a weird flash.

IN CONCLUSION, if riot design new duelist they will stick with that 2 types

#30

targuin

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why there is a role called flash

Because some comps greatly benefit from having an agent with multiple flashes
Flashes interact with other agents in a way which makes it great to be able to group them into a single term.
So being able to describe that for example double smoke + flash is a good combo is a great way to convey the abstract concept of a comp

Saying double smoke + double duelist/initiator would be technically correct, but it doesnt convey the information you want since they could for example take that to mean double smoke + double dive
That is a fundamentally different structure

It is definitely a more granular approach though, so if youre trying to minimize the amount of "roles", then it would be one of the first to go due to how many different agents have some variation of a flash

#33

itoktobenotok

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W opinion bro. But i think most comps which has a flasher right now is Yoru all the time and i don't think he get picked for only his flash though, more like his teleportation and ult that 100% clear a bombsite, very good for retake and entry.

Flash is very OG ability but people have got used to it for a long time (quick reaction or just hug a wall to cover when get flashed). those comps without flash like rrq pearl comps against prx did just fine in clearing corner just by going in group and ready for trading kills but if you still want some way to annoy enemies before taking a fight then stun, dog, dash, slow,... are annoying too.

So i think flashes interaction are more to be seen casually than other effects but not dominant enough and not super effective enough to be group into a single term or role. An agent impact in comps need to be seen overally not just the flash.

#15

targuin

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Imo you should commit and fully get rid of Riots roles if you start with it (e.g. what do you mean with "Duelist", because you sure as hell dont mean Iso or Reyna despite them being duelist)

Your definition completely missing kayo in the current meta obviously doesn't help either (but that can be amended by adding "flash" to your 2nd duelist)

Main problem I have is that it doesnt really help construct and "explain" comps
A more fluid system (e.g. Anderzz' that uses the traditional roles, but allows agents to fall into multiple depending on what theyre there for) is just more effective in looking at an individual agents role in a comp

#22

Punish3rlp

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right like sub-roles that would make more sense

#36

Anguibok

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Kayo is good in the "off playmaking duelistesque" definition, he can flash for himself, his util allow to take, and his rez is beneficial for entry and good aim

#16

jixk

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idk why you renamed anchor,entry,flex(flashes sometimes),main smokes,lurk but u got it

#17

Flame4Game

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Yeah the thing is that while it's hard to pin comps down by role, there's nothing wrong with the current classifications because there will always be comps that don't obey the roles.

So here are the 5 roles :
Duelist (Any duelist)
Off (2nd Duelist, Senti-off)
Reveal (Sova, Fade, Skye, some delu team will add Tejo)
Def (2nd Controller, Senti-def)
Controller (Any controller)

Let's take no-duelist comps, like Chamber comps in 2022 or Icebox comps in 2024/5.
Comp A: Sova/Fade/KAYO/Chamber/Astra
Comp B: Sova/Omen/Viper/Killjoy/Sage

For comp A would you have: KAYO Duelist, Fade Off, Sova Reveal, Chamber Def, Astra Controller? or switch Chamber and KAY/O or Fade?
For comp B would you have: Omen Duelist, Sage Off, Sova Reveal, Killjoy Def, Viper Controller?

Riot's roles are not the best for describing agents, but they work mostly within compositions. Before 2026, most comps had one of each + a flex. Will there be exceptions? Definitely. But that doesn't mean the system itself is flawed.

#37

Anguibok

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The first comp is totally out of meta, in this meta, Kayo-Fade-Sova feels insane (Especially on "not Icebox", since you picked Astra)
The 2nd comp is more Iceboxesque, I'm Mixed on the classification for KJ (Probabbly mor def), since when she is play with Vip and another smoker, she isnt the lurking one, its also depend a lot of the philosophy behind the Sage player

I need to study more the KJ-Vip teram we have a lot on Viper, I do think Viper can be both off and def

#18

itoktobenotok

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STOP THAT ALL YAPPING BULLSHIT. HERE ARE THE MOST TRUSTWORTHY MOST SUCCINCT ROLES DIVISION:

ENTRY: self-enhance stats like movement (neon, jett, waylay,...), fire power (raze rocket, neon laser, chamber op), survivability (iso shield, reyna catching soul to escape or self-heal, yoru teleport,...)
AREAL MANIPULATION: areal clearing checking info (recons, fade dog, skype dog, drone,...), areal imposing negative effect (flash, stun, explode, fire, ...), areal obstructing(smoke, wall, walking wall like harbor iso,...)
DEFENDER: able to guard an area without man presence or active action (for example killjoy alarm bot vs sova drone both detect enemies but alarm bot is auto doesnt need player attention)

#19

GarbanzoEnjoyer

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proceeds to yap

#28

hellfire

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entry, duelist
breaching, recon
smoke
anchor/lurk

i cannot find a better fit or term that puts both flash and stuns in the same category, but since both are proactive utilities I think breaching somewhat does the job, ofc this taken from r6 xd

#31

ScatterSen

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Lost me at Veto as an offensive playmaker role…