I want to ask if you think these changes will genuinely improve gameplay in the sense that the utility will now have to be more carefully used. Gunplay will be incentivized, making the game more slow-paced and tactical rather than large executes (util expense) being the win con, or do you think this will take the enjoyability out of most agents? I suppose if every agent is properly changed, I believe it is really good for the game.
0
util changes genuine feedback
posted in
Valorant Discussion
Comments:
Threaded
Linear
jawn [#2]large executes are still a thing
Yes, I know, but it would be less hectic and more reliant on winning gun fights compared to the Tejo meta, where the win con was just dumping utility on site, which would cause a stagnation in the round (like 3 seconds) where utility would be dumped and zero gun fights taken.
Lakiafan32 [#3]Yes, I know, but it would be less hectic and more reliant on winning gun fights compared to the Tejo meta, where the win con was just dumping utility on site, which would cause a stagnation in the round (like 3 seconds) where utility would be dumped and zero gun fights taken.
only because some teams might be more stingy with their util because of the rechargable nerf, the amount of util is still the same, those rounds are perfectly possible
jawn [#5]only because some teams might be more stingy with their util because of the rechargable nerf, the amount of util is still the same, those rounds are perfectly possible
True, I still think those types of rounds will be less incentivized now and more rare.
Lakiafan32 [#3]Yes, I know, but it would be less hectic and more reliant on winning gun fights compared to the Tejo meta, where the win con was just dumping utility on site, which would cause a stagnation in the round (like 3 seconds) where utility would be dumped and zero gun fights taken.
With more scarce utility, teams will need to commit more relative utility to have the same effect. A normal layered execute: Drone->2 Smokes->Flash->Dart. Pretty standard entry, however now that total available utility is less, the commitment of that normal layered execute is much higher. Meaning you are inclined to use even more utility in that exec to assure success, as a second chance at the execute is more difficult with 60 second cooldowns as apposed to 40 second cooldowns. Now obviously utility dumping won't be a new thing with this patch, but what I am saying is that you are penalized more in this patch for NOT utility dumping. Genuinely I think the optimal way to play after this patch is to default to find the Veto E if applicable, bait it out, then utility dump as hard as you can with 2 duelists who can capitalize off of it. Condensing all of that effective util leads to two distinct playstyles: Pace abuse with duelists like I outlined, or painstakingly slow play to manipulate rotations, which I don't believe will be as effective in this meta for MOST teams as it was in 2023.
Rakooon [#8]Trash changes, I won't elaborate on balance but from a fun perspective it makes roles other than duelist not fun to play in ranked.
Looks to me like Riot made these changes with only high ranks/pro play in mind and they have no clue how the majority of the playerbase approaches the game.
I mean, I understand the sentiment, but the game was never meant to be played with a crutch on utility. I believe they also saw the majority of mid to low elo players crutched on utility too much and weren't being incentivized to prioritize improving their mechanics. I see a world in which the game becomes incredibly boring because changes weren't equally dished out to each agent, making some objectively better than others, but I see another world where the game will go back to how it was very early on, where good mechanics got you very far, and utility was a more adverse thing. Guess we gotta find out.
I think this is a very nice change at least when it comes to the higher levels of play, no longer do you have the choice to wait out your signature ability cooldown to have during all phases of your gameplan, you now actually have to pick and choose when it's most important to use said ability which contrary to popular belief might actually increase the pace of rounds
(Also astra is SO back btw guys)
overweightcat34 [#9]With more scarce utility, teams will need to commit more relative utility to have the same effect. A normal layered execute: Drone->2 Smokes->Flash->Dart. Pretty standard entry, however now that total available utility is less, the commitment of that normal layered execute is much higher. Meaning you are inclined to use even more utility in that exec to assure success, as a second chance at the execute is more difficult with 60 second cooldowns as apposed to 40 second cooldowns. Now obviously utility dumping won't be a new thing with this patch, but what I am saying is that you are penalized more in this patch for NOT utility dumping. Genuinely I think the optimal way to play after this patch is to default to find the Veto E if applicable, bait it out, then utility dump as hard as you can with 2 duelists who can capitalize off of it. Condensing all of that effective util leads to two distinct playstyles: Pace abuse with duelists like I outlined, or painstakingly slow play to manipulate rotations, which I don't believe will be as effective in this meta for MOST teams as it was in 2023.
Sadly I think you're prediction is correct for the upcoming meta, I genuinely hoped the utility changes would change the game in a way where utility was being placed less yet more strageticly (a fair trade) yet it seems they are simply trying to reduce utility so teams will be incentivized to preserve their utility until the final exec where its a battle of which team was able to keep the most utility :/
Lakiafan32 [#7]True, I still think those types of rounds will be less incentivized now and more rare.
how exactly? teams are just gonna wait 20 more seconds to get their util back, this changes nothing about execs
also the meta after tejo nerfs was really good, util was overall balanced
this is just solving a problem that doesnt exist anymore
Lakiafan32 [#12]Sadly I think you're prediction is correct for the upcoming meta, I genuinely hoped the utility changes would change the game in a way where utility was being placed less yet more strageticly (a fair trade) yet it seems they are simply trying to reduce utility so teams will be incentivized to preserve their utility until the final exec where its a battle of which team was able to keep the most utility :/
Scarcity, War of Attrition... Yep Sun Tzu mfs know whats up
overweightcat34 [#9]With more scarce utility, teams will need to commit more relative utility to have the same effect. A normal layered execute: Drone->2 Smokes->Flash->Dart. Pretty standard entry, however now that total available utility is less, the commitment of that normal layered execute is much higher. Meaning you are inclined to use even more utility in that exec to assure success, as a second chance at the execute is more difficult with 60 second cooldowns as apposed to 40 second cooldowns. Now obviously utility dumping won't be a new thing with this patch, but what I am saying is that you are penalized more in this patch for NOT utility dumping. Genuinely I think the optimal way to play after this patch is to default to find the Veto E if applicable, bait it out, then utility dump as hard as you can with 2 duelists who can capitalize off of it. Condensing all of that effective util leads to two distinct playstyles: Pace abuse with duelists like I outlined, or painstakingly slow play to manipulate rotations, which I don't believe will be as effective in this meta for MOST teams as it was in 2023.
counterpoint: sentinels will be useless and we will see more intricate setups on defense with double/triple something to hold site and avoid retakes as much as possible
serot [#13]how exactly? teams are just gonna wait 20 more seconds to get their util back, this changes nothing about execs
also the meta after tejo nerfs was really good, util was overall balanced
this is just solving a problem that doesnt exist anymore
I addressed this below. I misinterpreted the outcome of these new changes. But it won't be because they will wait longer for the sig to come back, it will be because they will conserve their utility.
foythvlr [#15]counterpoint: sentinels will be useless and we will see more intricate setups on defense with double/triple something to hold site and avoid retakes as much as possible
Sentinels will be useless because there is less utility or because a new Senti that is great for coordinated play got added? Not sure I get your point. What I will say is that even if Veto is not in your comp, having the stopping power of a Sentinel to derail a hit and then force the other team to wait 60 seconds for cooldowns vs 40 seconds will greatly impact the game. That said maybe some teams will not play sentinel and instead bring another agent with redundant utility ie: playing 2 recons so you can "waste" a dart and still have one to hit. Or even more duelists will be played as they have more relative utility now, aside from the nerfs to Yoru and Neon. The problem with redundant or non-sentinel comps is you are preparing for the side with less inherent advantages after these changes. IMO better to plan for a 9+ round defense side and find ways to make up a few rounds on attack, rather than prepare a comp that can maybe get 6 on either side.
Lakiafan32 [#10]I mean, I understand the sentiment, but the game was never meant to be played with a crutch on utility. I believe they also saw the majority of mid to low elo players crutched on utility too much and weren't being incentivized to prioritize improving their mechanics. I see a world in which the game becomes incredibly boring because changes weren't equally dished out to each agent, making some objectively better than others, but I see another world where the game will go back to how it was very early on, where good mechanics got you very far, and utility was a more adverse thing. Guess we gotta find out.
The game is not CS but you bums want it to be just like CS. If you want weak ass utility and an emphasis on gunplay just quit val and play counter strike. Why would anyone even bother locking in a weak util agent when they can just run it down with reyna jett iso like its CS? If you are gonna make the game gunfight focused more people are gonna play agents that help you take gunfights. This is just making the already horrible ranked meta worse.
Lakiafan32 [#10]I mean, I understand the sentiment, but the game was never meant to be played with a crutch on utility. I believe they also saw the majority of mid to low elo players crutched on utility too much and weren't being incentivized to prioritize improving their mechanics. I see a world in which the game becomes incredibly boring because changes weren't equally dished out to each agent, making some objectively better than others, but I see another world where the game will go back to how it was very early on, where good mechanics got you very far, and utility was a more adverse thing. Guess we gotta find out.
You say that util is a "crutch" but there's ways to play around util in almost every situation. Aim always was and will always be king.
serot [#18]The game is not CS but you bums want it to be just like CS. If you want weak ass utility and an emphasis on gunplay just quit val and play counter strike. Why would anyone even bother locking in a weak util agent when they can just run it down with reyna jett iso like its CS? If you are gonna make the game gunfight focused more people are gonna play agents that help you take gunfights. This is just making the already horrible ranked meta worse.
So hostile for what? You completely missed the point. The game was never meant to be completely dependent on utility. I never called for "weak ass utility" 😂 but this isn't Overwatch, the agent's utility shouldn't dictate anything other than your playstyle. Far too many people who are in mid to low elo hard crutch on utility to win gun fights, it should always be more rewarding to have good mechanics in a game like Valorant because it's the only universal thing in the game. In Overwatch, each hero's mechanics-- obviously, it isn't like that in Valorant, that's why agent nerfs are more spaced out and low impact. Also, even if the meta was iso, Reyna, and Jett, which it won't be, how does that make it CS? Valorant would still retain its identity. But the endpoint is I'm not the person calling for an emphasis on gunplay; it was legitimately always emphasized.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iGU6PctOBg&t=47s
It was always incentivized to have unique utility to support gunplay. If you want to play Overwatch, play Overwatch.
Rakooon [#19]You say that util is a "crutch" but there's ways to play around util in almost every situation. Aim always was and will always be king.
Your entire sentiment was contrary to this: "Looks to me like Riot made these changes with only high ranks/pro play in mind". To me, I read this as "Valorant should stop forcing the incentivization of good mechanics and realize a lot of the casual player base relies on utility." Also, I'm not claiming utility is a crutch inherently; it just shouldn't be treated as one.
Lakiafan32 [#21]Your entire sentiment was contrary to this: "Looks to me like Riot made these changes with only high ranks/pro play in mind". To me, I read this as "Valorant should stop forcing the incentivization of good mechanics and realize a lot of the casual player base relies on utility." Also, I'm not claiming utility is a crutch inherently; it just shouldn't be treated as one.
Looks to me like you live in a different reality, because it's precisely the casual player that relies less on utility and more on aim. Lower elo players cannot coordinate util, they can't do executes properly, they can't do retakes, they don't even know when or how to use their util correctly most of the time. And as I said, players will never stop improving their aiming, because as I said, aim is king. Riot is "fixing" a problem that was never there.
I think it's good, personally I feel like we always overreact to changes on big patches and then a few days later everyone is slowly adapted to it. I understand people think they are fixing a non-problem for the casual playerbase but there are alot of people in the casual playerbase that did rely on utility especially if anyone has played in Japan servers, the util usage was pretty much king over aim alot of the times when I was climbing there. We are all humans, we can adapt to these changes and we got a whole ass off-season to do it so honestly I wish we would just see how it plays instead of reacting first
Rakooon [#22]Looks to me like you live in a different reality, because it's precisely the casual player that relies less on utility and more on aim. Lower elo players cannot coordinate util, they can't do executes properly, they can't do retakes, they don't even know when or how to use their util correctly most of the time. And as I said, players will never stop improving their aiming, because as I said, aim is king. Riot is "fixing" a problem that was never there.
You make a point and then completely retract it and act as if I'm crazy? "Looks to me like Riot made these changes with only high ranks/pro play in mind, and they have no clue how the majority of the playerbase approaches the game." This is a direct quote from you in regards to utility being nerfed. What else is there to infer from this? If you're making the claim, this won't affect the "majority" because they can't use the utility to its full extent, then you might genuinely have zero clue how this game works😂 Casual players wouldn't rely on aim more because they don't have refined mechanics (i.e., aim, movement) there's no logic behind stating casual players rely on aim because they don't play the game that much which begs the question, how would they have good aim or aim good enough to rely on it? If anything, casual players would rely MORE on utility because using utility is a lower skill ceiling than having good mechanics. You're either grossly underestimating the experience needed for good mechanics or grossly overestimating the skill ceiling for good utility usage. Don't make ambiguous points and then enact grandiosity as if your point was clear.
Rakooon [#22]Looks to me like you live in a different reality, because it's precisely the casual player that relies less on utility and more on aim. Lower elo players cannot coordinate util, they can't do executes properly, they can't do retakes, they don't even know when or how to use their util correctly most of the time. And as I said, players will never stop improving their aiming, because as I said, aim is king. Riot is "fixing" a problem that was never there.
I never reply twice because I want a counter-argument, but holy shit, I don't understand how you concluded that the casual player would rely more on their unrefined mechanics than simply using more utility to compensate for their inexperience.
SiwooHaechok [#23]I think it's good, personally I feel like we always overreact to changes on big patches and then a few days later everyone is slowly adapted to it. I understand people think they are fixing a non-problem for the casual playerbase but there are alot of people in the casual playerbase that did rely on utility especially if anyone has played in Japan servers, the util usage was pretty much king over aim alot of the times when I was climbing there. We are all humans, we can adapt to these changes and we got a whole ass off-season to do it so honestly I wish we would just see how it plays instead of reacting first
Thank you for an honest and well-thought-out response and actually understanding my point. I just wish people would approach this discourse with more care and less hostility.
Lakiafan32 [#20]So hostile for what? You completely missed the point. The game was never meant to be completely dependent on utility. I never called for "weak ass utility" 😂 but this isn't Overwatch, the agent's utility shouldn't dictate anything other than your playstyle. Far too many people who are in mid to low elo hard crutch on utility to win gun fights, it should always be more rewarding to have good mechanics in a game like Valorant because it's the only universal thing in the game. In Overwatch, each hero's mechanics-- obviously, it isn't like that in Valorant, that's why agent nerfs are more spaced out and low impact. Also, even if the meta was iso, Reyna, and Jett, which it won't be, how does that make it CS? Valorant would still retain its identity. But the endpoint is I'm not the person calling for an emphasis on gunplay; it was legitimately always emphasized.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iGU6PctOBg&t=47s
It was always incentivized to have unique utility to support gunplay. If you want to play Overwatch, play Overwatch.
Yeah and the entire point of low elo is to make sure those util dependent trash aimers never make it to a reasonably good rank?
Not sure what exactly is wrong with having util dependent people in low ranks, isn't that the entire point? If anything that proves that gunplay is still supreme, since you clearly can't climb with bad aim.
Calling current valorant util dependent is a very big stretch. You can literally aim and gamesense your way to asc immo locking in jett reyna. Util never has been better than gunplay. It is entirely people like you complaining about "strong util" and "lack of precise gunplay" that valorant rolled out these terrible changes. Every single pro player agrees that of the current meta agents, the game is more balanced than ever. So many compositions and agents are viable now more than ever.
Also have you even played ranked recently? The ranked meta is literally jett, reyna, clove nearly every other game. Ranked has never been more stale for the casual player. Why? Because those agents focus on taking max number of gunfights. If you want valorant to play like that then what is the point of even having agents in the game? Making utility weaker isn't gonna make this problem better at all. Gunfights are already king, and utility is very easy to play around if you have a brain.
Discord