Not trying to undermine Zomb's impact but what IF Andersin was playing for SENTINELS instead of Zombs....
Do you think SEN would have been a perfect team in this case scenario? I mean who can beat such a hell of a team in the world, let alone NA?
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What IF Andresin was in SEN?
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i mean you need space for the star player to frag tf out. zombs is consistent and thats what they need, not more firepower. more firepower isnt always good, see tsm. they got wardell, subroza, actually their whole team is full of fraggers. still they have been struggling up until now. hopefully they get good now but you get my point.
Disagree, but I can explain. You see, when SEN played XSET, zombs didn't look quite convincing there:
https://www.vlr.gg/25198/xset-vs-sentinels-champions-tour-north-america-stage-3-challengers-1-ubsf
Andersin doesn't need to frag the hell out of it. He would only add a better balnce to SEN when things are not going quite well. He is a good clutcher and can duel like top duelist while playing controller. SEN have their system tuned up perfectly which is reflected in their W/L ration so I woldn't go as far as comparing TSM to SEN yet. But, just thoughts.
When you're looking at only stats you'll probably get an opinion about a player that's incorrect. Controller players (aka zombs) are in most teams going to be the last in, last out. Their utility is arguably the most valuable on a team, so if your smokes player dies first, you're going to have issues.
So when you lose, the players who are always last into a site will have much worse stats since your site hits are getting shut down, your site holds are getting punished. Being selfless on a pro team is important, stats generally don't tell the full picture of any game.
Before you indirectly accuse Andersin of being selfish and the one who just +W and frag type of player, I want to say that it is alright that you feel like Zombs is irreplacable(or at least there is no need) as the topic is sensitive due to fans support their players etc. But I have to disagree with you on your indirect argument that Andersin is incapable of playing such role dynamics. I mean they both play smokes on a pro level and understand how die last is important aspect in their games. But Andersin is showing some consistency that play in favour of him defending that say A site on Haven due to his fragging ability. Again, not that Zombs is a bad player is the question, but more like if there anyone else better than Zombs to make SEN even stronger - a question.
Just to add, I've been watching all SEN games from the beginning and majority of Valorants VODs available. So, I believe that I know how teams typically play and build their strats, at least in EU and NA. And econ/math grad in past plus some rl stats projects, so I am aware on how not to pull the stats by its ears to make a point. Was just looking for some convo on the topic. thnx
everyone has bad days, you cant pick and choose which data to look.
https://www.vlr.gg/25200/xset-vs-sentinels-champions-tour-north-america-stage-3-challengers-1-gf
In this map you can see zombs outfragged everyone on xset except bcj. zombs may not be the best fragger but he is the smoker sen needs. his value comes more from his utility than his kills, who knows maybe andersin's utility usage is not as good as zombs or may not even fit sen's style. moreover zombs has shown he can tussle in lan against other top teams so that alone puts him before andersin in my eyes.
BcJ and AYRIN to be correct....
I absolutely agree on bad days thing. Zombs has been very solid for SEN and one game that I linked is not going to make him a bad player suddenly. But from what I've seen, their utility usage is more than good for a team smoker. It's just that I thought Andersin is a slightly better player when it comes to defending the site(i.e A on Haven etc). He just doesn't fall that easy and somehow gets those headshots left and right, you know? Again it's imho ofc but I believe we can find some data on that.
Thanks for reminding LAN - best argument yet.
Alright, if you drag Zombs into the convo from the get go.... Do you think that there are no players currently in NA that can replace Zombs in SEN, given they have enough skill to help SEN maintaining their success or even make them perform better, just because they haven't proven their quality at a global LAN(except V1 players ofc)?
There's not a better controller in NA, Vanity is the only one who comes close imo. He's also one of the most clutch players around at the moment and has done it at the highest levels. Are there better players in terms of pure skill, probably, but not many who have a better understanding of the game.
So, there is not a better controller in NA except Zombs and Vanity because of their international performance experience and understanding of the game, right?
If that is true, then will you change your above opinion when 3 teams from NA will go to their international LAN in Berlin? There will be at least one team with a controller who would qualify and have intl LAN experience, even if we exclude SEN/V1 for a moment?
Lastly, how do you measure "understanding of the game" of Zombs and Vanity? Do you have any methods, principles or theories that could be tested, preferably objective or somewhat aceptable ofc?
we talking about scoreboards now? here's andersin against a no namer
https://www.vlr.gg/28291/darkzero-esports-vs-fiu-champions-tour-north-america-stage-3-challengers-2-qualifier-ro64
I'll make it easier for you, if you want to compare zombs and andersin.
Andersin's page:
https://www.vlr.gg/player/1089/andersin/?timespan=all
Zombs page:
https://www.vlr.gg/player/47/zombs/?timespan=all
At this point, there is no need to search for separate matches. We can just look at their main profile page.
Bro, how many times a player has to perform well against teams with 1800+ to consider his worth? Like what, do you really think a player has to play all his life to finally being considered worth playing for a top tier? Like do you need him to be already a cream of the crop top tier who exclusively played many years vs top tiers so that he'll be considered as a top tier team potential?
I see your point. You're conserned with some assurance in your investment as an org which is part of a typical risk assesment - they all cost you some $$$ obv and you'd expect some return on it(or you lose). But how tight is your risk aversion model is dictated by an org itself and if an org has enough spending power, they'd typically jump at any hot opportunity(i.e eSports or football etc). Leading us to the point where it doesn't matter how long a player had been playing before as long as inside channels(scouts) reporting on that player's skill/worth. Obv if a player had shown his worth by succeeding against strong opponents in the past, he'd have a better chance of being picked up by a big org.
Now Andersin is actually belong to the later category of an experienced player who'd showned his skill vs strong opponents. Metas here have no substantial ground in deciding whether a player has a RAW skill in this game or not. Andersin can play as good on duelists as he can play on controllers which shows his deep agent pool grasp. It is already kind of impressive eventhough he rarely played top teams since we are talking about officials and not matchmaking. Like for example, what assurance we would get bringing a cold ex-cs pro even the decorated one who had not play Val? We have seen T1's struggle and TSM's for over a year now. Andersin was owning it today vs TSM and was doing beside one or two duelists, playing a contoller. Anyway, possibly this is a matter of different approaches and we could agree to disagree.
Cool and thnx for your input.... I know what you mean. Actually someone already mentioned about him fitting into Faze system and it seems decent to me as he plays pretty aggressive.
Anyways, it seems that this topic can go way deeper than what I initially thought of due to some fans' loyalty and just bias. But still it was worth the time. thnx
Ohh trust me, I know very well what zomb's function is in the team. And you're right about anchors in teams as every team has an anchor - not only SEN. However, a team can only be as strong as its weakest link, and zombs is not quite the strongest link let alone an anchor, right? Whereas Andersin keep proving himself to be consistent on top of his fragging ability, and they both play smokes as Viper/.... btw.
If you think that Zombs is irreplaceable then it's totally fine - we can agree to disagree.
Wow, that's hard question.
Let's limit the scope by a player that only use controller, as far as I know there's so little. And the best is nitro from 100T
If controller + anchor, it could be wippie from v1. But he use KJ a lot too. And only main viper in controller.
Andresin might be good too, but since I rarely watch him play. I don't know much about him.
Hope that helps,
Andersin is a complete viper player right now. Zombs plays the other smoke agents as well. It's not as easy as a 1 to 1 transfer. I guess it would be possible but with a player that is just viper only. The team has to play differently. Not really to support the player. But just to get the full value out of it. I guess Shahzam could incorporate him in. But I think how solid anchor zombs and the fact that he is their main smoker and can flex on to most of the smoke agents is really good. I just think Andersin is a really strong player. I actually think he's better than zombs at the moment just because of how much value he can always bring. But I don't think he's a good replacement for zombs. It's like replacing Hazed on TSM with like Jammyz. Ofc I would say that Jammyz is the better player. But hazed is a part of the core of the team(other than the fact that he is an IGL). And he is more of a main smoker where he doesn't need an astra to make sure that his viper smokes cover everything.
Cool and thanks for your input.
You should already know that Andersin plays Omen and rest of smoking brigade plus he is an excellent duelist. And you're right about Shahzam as I too believe that a good IGL which Shahz is could always make things work faster(TenZ ex...imho). Also, zombs can flex not only on many smokers but also on duelists as he has shown it in past.
I agree on Andersin having more impact than zombs with his frags ... that was my initial interest in asking the comminity. But the range of answers were still somewhat alright, given trolling and plain bias from some members.
Don't forget that Subroza is actually an Omen main and plays smokes on some maps when Hazed plays kj/cypher.
FYI, I consider TOP 25 NA as competitive as any other team out or in that top. I mean DZ(22) beat FAZE(3) or XSET(5) is not enough of a proof for that? Or how about RISE(13) or Pioneers(18) who beat C9(6) or V1(8) - the Rejikavik qualifier, and will be playing in playoffs is once in a blue moon for you? Well, I'll tell you to stop being delucional and consider that every team in that top will go above and beyond to become the best. In brief, it's their actual business plan, if you will. The question is more whether they have the capacity to reach that goal. And the answer would be, yes they have the capacity and have already demonstrated to us by reaching the playoffs. They are not the best yet but it's a progress nevertheless, don't you agree?
BTW why are you so concerned with the tiers where the topic is about particular player who is a highly skilled one? Like as if you didn't know that for example, NAVI replaced Flamie with B1t - the guy who you'd never heard about anything before, let alone tier. Yet, B1t does top tier work and does it exceptionally well, if you still watch cs ofc. And I can give you more examples like that as it represents the scouting job at its core. If an unknown player has skills to be in the top tier team, it has nothing to do with the team level he's being scouted from.
ok I get it where you getting Faze as #3. I wasn't talking about vlr ranks rather the teams that perform consistently and are always in top 5 in closed/playoffs. Andersin is consistent and great and has the capability to play with T1 team but you're comparing him with a player who's been fending off all top teams out there. how many times did KK with Andersin played in playoffs?
Fair enough, I see. I just took Ranking on here as a base. If you ask me, this ranking represnts consistency in some way. Not the final goal(i.e. playoffs etc) type of consistency but more per cycle of matches as it only needed to lose one match to be droped from quals etc. But fine, we might disagree on that yet the ranking in on this site is for a reason(obv).
Now, Andersin does not need to be playing in playoffs to prove his worth. It is enough to face enough strong teams on diff occasions to show his skill(strictly IMHO). Either Koalas or DZ might not have had enough balanced squad to counteract other teams, hence not reaching playoffs or such would have underrated him or any other player in his situatation untill next another big opportunity where he could shine in one of the big matches - not saying ofc that he wants to leave the team etc. But again, I only wanted to know if Andersin can make SEN an even better team, given who and where he is at the moment in terms of his skill and team's tier.
you should not forget that the team chemistry is also a big thing that takes quite some long time to develop. Andersin will need some time to fit in a new team obviously. he might be one of top 10 anchors in NA
And out of context thing "Andersin does not need to be playing in playoffs to prove his worth" remember someone showed a few days ago how an indian player has better stats than tenz?
Obv chemistry is a big thing. But we're talking about a pro player who is familiar with typical org governance codes. They all begin from it to get down to the actual team level comms etc. He has proven that in this regard he is not problematic so I don't see him struggling in being part of any NA team atm. Another thing if we were talking about foreign player which might not always work out but he is American.
And I replied in that thread that we can't mix Indian no tears with NA tiers. When you look at the data, you must follow certain condition in a rules format. You can't just take stats and say that that player better than the other one as it simply won't be reliable. The tier is an actual condition that should not be violated in the analysis. You only can compare teams by their region or by tournaments - that's it. So even a comparison of a cNed to TenZ is unreliable, no matter how much we want it to be. If we had to compare them, we'd need to wait till Berlin if they both go through ofc.
Though you can probably estimate cNed's skill to TenZ's stats by relaxing the condition, but we'd need to assume that EU is somewhere similar level(you won't be wrong btw). Unfourtunately, you'd never be able to do a valid pro report on it. In three years time, we'd have more data and will be able to get a better estimation between the regions but not untill then. Though you can easily compare Derke to TenZ as both played at Reijkivik - condition not violated. Sorry for strictness but real world statistics require a lot of rigour. Therefore, SkRossi is completely out of question atm as he is a foregner and might have potential probs integrating into NA teams which will lead to a decreased performance. And that SkRossi plays in a non tier region that for obv reasons is full of amateurs and is not even close to any pro Val region, let alone the strongest - NA region. With Andersin, it's a differnt story as he is already a pro and performed vs top teams successfully. Hence, you can compare him to other NA pros or semis to arrive at a very close estimation.
Fair, how about PIONEERS(18), are they not as good as V1(7) or DZ(22) are not as good as FAZE(3)? Why not considering such teams as a threat? BTW, I said that all teams in top 25 are as competative which means having strong desire to compete and succeed, leading to upsets or outgrowth over their opponents over either short or long-term periods and vice versa. In other words, I think that we are not at the point in time when we can easily consider top 8 teams above the rest of top 25 except SEN which stands on it's own, be it in the world or NA. We just don't see ENOUGH consistent performance from them yet. However, we are slowly getting there, and I'll be more than happy to finally see some stability among them. Same applies to EU where we could observe enough fluctuation to be conserned aboout teams who are way below top 8.
Since you mentioned TIERs, could you state the way or a method you've applied to decide which team belongs to which tier and why?
He lost multiple duels because he tried to take gunfights instead of using utility and a couple times he died early and dark zero were flat, I think the next time he plays a t1 team he will just be hard targeted and then dark zero will have no way to hit sites. Problem with aggressive controller plays is your kit is to valuable to be taking duels
Here is your one trick guy:
https://www.vlr.gg/player/1089/andersin/?timespan=all
Like dauum, he can actually play duelists decently. Bruv, just get to know something about shit you talk before talking about it - ngl one dimentional Head award category level.
This literal thread is calling for Sen to replace him, so do multiple that are made on this site everyday. People love to make him out as a problem on SEN when he isn't, and people love to act like there are better controller players in NA to replace him. And I bring up ACS because it is by far the most overrated stat and is widely used by many as a way to gage player strength. Last large post talking about Zombs had people comparing player acs, and I bet I could prob find someone in this thread if I really cared enough.
Listen, you are wrong. This thread was made to find an opinion on whether Andersin would make SEN a better team. Come on, you can read, right? Zombs here has no place to be discussed and if some people dragged him into conversation, that's doesn't mean that the whole thread becomes about Zombs or his underperformance. So, again, from the original poster, this thread is about Andersin and has nothing to do with Zombs apart from the fact that Zombs plays in same team/smokes.
Now regarding ACS, it's not always a reliable indicator on its own when you look at player's performance because diff agents have different impact on the game, nor HS% would be equally reliable on its own. However, there are ADR, CL% or KD etc that I normally look at with consideration of ACS/HS% and the rest, if I'm trying to estimate certain player's impact. It's not an easy thing to conclude some times but I am not the type of person who'd go and tell the world about his findings based only on ACS. That's just not reliable enough in my book but on ocassions there are times when you can base some opinion by looking at ACS only. I also closely watch matches live and VODs which helps me to understand certain players from different perspective. So, it's all cool bro. You could have just normally asked me without stupid accusations and I would gladly replied to you as I did with other responses on here. But whatever ... thnx for your input.
Edited: Some typos only.
Ah yes this thread has nothing to do with zombs its only someone asking if andersin was in place of zombs would the team be perfect, no one brought up zombs good point. Also I really never asked for your opinion even if u for some reason think that, I could care less what u and other people on this site think, I only replied cuz u said some odd condescending shit and talked about "bait" which I never brought up nor did anyone else in this thread so idrk what ur trying to get across here. Either way I think my point definitively stands that Zombs is better than Andersin and that SEN would be worse without Zombs, and that a lot of people have no idea what they are talking about(which you and I both know is true right "bro" ;)
Believe it or not, I had hoped to find some conversation on Andersin without comparing him to Zombs, simply picturing a scenario in which there were no Zombs cause he left or whatever(Is it possible that Andersin could make SEN better?) Some people mentioned alternatives to Andersin without bringing Zombs into the conversation, which was more than alright. But some, like you, have decided to push their own opinion without providing evidence to support their claims, despite the fact that Zomb's numbers aren't on level with other smokers.
In all honestly, it is hard to add anything because I believe you, like others on this site, have some insecurities about your favourite players or a team. But yeah, you have somewhat expressed your own opinion and that's totally fine I guess. It's just I wanted to see some support to your claims.
bruh Zombs is the BEST support player in the world. sen already has Tenz and Sick for fragging. zomb always does what needs to be done. he defends the site perfectly and his ability useage is perfect. he's probably the best astra in the world too. you are a clown if you think andresin is better then zombs. just cause zombs doesn't always frag doesn't mean he can't. ever watched his stream or him playing duelist? Andresin lmfao. Andresin who? oh the nobody who'll always stay nobody
Calling me a CLOWN is not sport, kid. So, let's skip the useless phrasing and get right to the point.
Apart from "best," "perfectly," and "nobody," I haven't heard anything from you that could be considered reliable or if you will objective. Can you actually SUPPORT that Zombs is perfect and the best while Andersin is a nobody as you claim?
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