Listen, you are wrong. This thread was made to find an opinion on whether Andersin would make SEN a better team. Come on, you can read, right? Zombs here has no place to be discussed and if some people dragged him into conversation, that's doesn't mean that the whole thread becomes about Zombs or his underperformance. So, again, from the original poster, this thread is about Andersin and has nothing to do with Zombs apart from the fact that Zombs plays in same team/smokes.

Now regarding ACS, it's not always a reliable indicator on its own when you look at player's performance because diff agents have different impact on the game, nor HS% would be equally reliable on its own. However, there are ADR, CL% or KD etc that I normally look at with consideration of ACS/HS% and the rest, if I'm trying to estimate certain player's impact. It's not an easy thing to conclude some times but I am not the type of person who'd go and tell the world about his findings based only on ACS. That's just not reliable enough in my book but on ocassions there are times when you can base some opinion by looking at ACS only. I also closely watch matches live and VODs which helps me to understand certain players from different perspective. So, it's all cool bro. You could have just normally asked me without stupid accusations and I would gladly replied to you as I did with other responses on here. But whatever ... thnx for your input.

Edited: Some typos only.

What was the condition for putting teams into tier 1 category?

If you decide that teams who fall into tier 1 had to play in say all biggest events from RIOT(Masters and First Strike) except Reykjavík(for now). Then you'd have SEN/V1 cause of Reykjavík and Faze, NV, 100t and IMT are all belong in tier 1 because all except V1(new but ended up in Reykjavík) played in First Strike and Masters. Especially, this year's Masters was the biggest tourny in NA(not international). Unfortunately, C9B has never been a tier 1 team in Valorant yet as they have never reached a main event through the qualifications, not even once. Whereas LG, XSET, GEN.G, TSM, T1 and RNG have played at least in one of the two biggest main events and belong in tier 1.5. From here on you can build tier 2 and 3 based on playoffs and maybe some monthly tournaments(consider some teams were not allowed to play monthlies).

I mentioned about condition as there has to be some order/rule or we're going to change tiers every month depends on recent teams' performance.

Did you just agree with the statement that Xepa has been underperfoming?

Could you plaese tell me exactly in which games he's been underperforming or where should I looked for his underperformance? I actually went and looked at his history and except today's game I don't see anything....

He's not been underperformining like CONSISTENLY underperforming. He only had a ONE BAD game where his team looked awful af, and you already think he should be dropped? How about stage 2 quals, did you even bother looking at his performance there?

Edited: Stage 3 ---> 2

So, does that mean he played vs tier 1 teams? It's just @plebwong thinks he haven't played vs tier 1 teams yet.

"Love seeing people using ACS to try to say Zombs is bad, it always shows me who actually knows anything about the game."

Would you mind to tell me, who is saying that Zombs is bad, and what's your beef with ACS? I mean who exactly is using ACS here?

Not going well... SADGE

Solid perf from Dawn

Only as a rofl though:

Badly Beaten Gamecocks or Baited by Governors.

Failed to defuse on time due to reasons stated in the link. Doesn't stop some of our vlr members to judge the poor guy straight away whithout knowing wtf has happend.

https://twitter.com/HUYNH_CS/status/1419027706600173572

Cool and thanks for your input.

You should already know that Andersin plays Omen and rest of smoking brigade plus he is an excellent duelist. And you're right about Shahzam as I too believe that a good IGL which Shahz is could always make things work faster(TenZ ex...imho). Also, zombs can flex not only on many smokers but also on duelists as he has shown it in past.

I agree on Andersin having more impact than zombs with his frags ... that was my initial interest in asking the comminity. But the range of answers were still somewhat alright, given trolling and plain bias from some members.

Don't forget that Subroza is actually an Omen main and plays smokes on some maps when Hazed plays kj/cypher.

It's alright bro... don't feel intimidated by the ACS - it doesn't bite;)
Everyone has their own opinion on thing, let alone experince that you yourself might lack. Not everything in life is a BAIT but if you look for a BAIT, you will always find one even if there was no any BAIT there. gDay

Cool and thnx for your input.... I know what you mean. Actually someone already mentioned about him fitting into Faze system and it seems decent to me as he plays pretty aggressive.
Anyways, it seems that this topic can go way deeper than what I initially thought of due to some fans' loyalty and just bias. But still it was worth the time. thnx

Obv chemistry is a big thing. But we're talking about a pro player who is familiar with typical org governance codes. They all begin from it to get down to the actual team level comms etc. He has proven that in this regard he is not problematic so I don't see him struggling in being part of any NA team atm. Another thing if we were talking about foreign player which might not always work out but he is American.

And I replied in that thread that we can't mix Indian no tears with NA tiers. When you look at the data, you must follow certain condition in a rules format. You can't just take stats and say that that player better than the other one as it simply won't be reliable. The tier is an actual condition that should not be violated in the analysis. You only can compare teams by their region or by tournaments - that's it. So even a comparison of a cNed to TenZ is unreliable, no matter how much we want it to be. If we had to compare them, we'd need to wait till Berlin if they both go through ofc.

Though you can probably estimate cNed's skill to TenZ's stats by relaxing the condition, but we'd need to assume that EU is somewhere similar level(you won't be wrong btw). Unfourtunately, you'd never be able to do a valid pro report on it. In three years time, we'd have more data and will be able to get a better estimation between the regions but not untill then. Though you can easily compare Derke to TenZ as both played at Reijkivik - condition not violated. Sorry for strictness but real world statistics require a lot of rigour. Therefore, SkRossi is completely out of question atm as he is a foregner and might have potential probs integrating into NA teams which will lead to a decreased performance. And that SkRossi plays in a non tier region that for obv reasons is full of amateurs and is not even close to any pro Val region, let alone the strongest - NA region. With Andersin, it's a differnt story as he is already a pro and performed vs top teams successfully. Hence, you can compare him to other NA pros or semis to arrive at a very close estimation.

I see your point. You're conserned with some assurance in your investment as an org which is part of a typical risk assesment - they all cost you some $$$ obv and you'd expect some return on it(or you lose). But how tight is your risk aversion model is dictated by an org itself and if an org has enough spending power, they'd typically jump at any hot opportunity(i.e eSports or football etc). Leading us to the point where it doesn't matter how long a player had been playing before as long as inside channels(scouts) reporting on that player's skill/worth. Obv if a player had shown his worth by succeeding against strong opponents in the past, he'd have a better chance of being picked up by a big org.

Now Andersin is actually belong to the later category of an experienced player who'd showned his skill vs strong opponents. Metas here have no substantial ground in deciding whether a player has a RAW skill in this game or not. Andersin can play as good on duelists as he can play on controllers which shows his deep agent pool grasp. It is already kind of impressive eventhough he rarely played top teams since we are talking about officials and not matchmaking. Like for example, what assurance we would get bringing a cold ex-cs pro even the decorated one who had not play Val? We have seen T1's struggle and TSM's for over a year now. Andersin was owning it today vs TSM and was doing beside one or two duelists, playing a contoller. Anyway, possibly this is a matter of different approaches and we could agree to disagree.

Yes, but then after only three days they won XSET in the finals 3-1. Appeared to be that XSET were quite strong team as they too reached finals, so I don't see any contradiction here.

Bro, Andersin has already performed vs top tier teams.

Bro, how many times a player has to perform well against teams with 1800+ to consider his worth? Like what, do you really think a player has to play all his life to finally being considered worth playing for a top tier? Like do you need him to be already a cream of the crop top tier who exclusively played many years vs top tiers so that he'll be considered as a top tier team potential?

Fair enough, I see. I just took Ranking on here as a base. If you ask me, this ranking represnts consistency in some way. Not the final goal(i.e. playoffs etc) type of consistency but more per cycle of matches as it only needed to lose one match to be droped from quals etc. But fine, we might disagree on that yet the ranking in on this site is for a reason(obv).

Now, Andersin does not need to be playing in playoffs to prove his worth. It is enough to face enough strong teams on diff occasions to show his skill(strictly IMHO). Either Koalas or DZ might not have had enough balanced squad to counteract other teams, hence not reaching playoffs or such would have underrated him or any other player in his situatation untill next another big opportunity where he could shine in one of the big matches - not saying ofc that he wants to leave the team etc. But again, I only wanted to know if Andersin can make SEN an even better team, given who and where he is at the moment in terms of his skill and team's tier.

Here is your one trick guy:

https://www.vlr.gg/player/1089/andersin/?timespan=all

Like dauum, he can actually play duelists decently. Bruv, just get to know something about shit you talk before talking about it - ngl one dimentional Head award category level.

Bruhhh.... For a second imagine that this thread is just a normal forum conversation. There are no bait intentions in here, at least from me. I mean are you so traumatized from BAITS to the point that everything looks like a bait to you or what?

That make sense given Faze parted with their main smoker Marved and how agressive Andersin can play.

I'll make it easier for you, if you want to compare zombs and andersin.

Andersin's page:
https://www.vlr.gg/player/1089/andersin/?timespan=all

Zombs page:
https://www.vlr.gg/player/47/zombs/?timespan=all

At this point, there is no need to search for separate matches. We can just look at their main profile page.

Have you watched any other DZ or Koalas games before because judging him based on the game vs TSM is not quite fair. Yet he came out as MVP of bo3.

Awesome, thanks.

FYI, I consider TOP 25 NA as competitive as any other team out or in that top. I mean DZ(22) beat FAZE(3) or XSET(5) is not enough of a proof for that? Or how about RISE(13) or Pioneers(18) who beat C9(6) or V1(8) - the Rejikavik qualifier, and will be playing in playoffs is once in a blue moon for you? Well, I'll tell you to stop being delucional and consider that every team in that top will go above and beyond to become the best. In brief, it's their actual business plan, if you will. The question is more whether they have the capacity to reach that goal. And the answer would be, yes they have the capacity and have already demonstrated to us by reaching the playoffs. They are not the best yet but it's a progress nevertheless, don't you agree?
BTW why are you so concerned with the tiers where the topic is about particular player who is a highly skilled one? Like as if you didn't know that for example, NAVI replaced Flamie with B1t - the guy who you'd never heard about anything before, let alone tier. Yet, B1t does top tier work and does it exceptionally well, if you still watch cs ofc. And I can give you more examples like that as it represents the scouting job at its core. If an unknown player has skills to be in the top tier team, it has nothing to do with the team level he's being scouted from.

BcJ and AYRIN to be correct....
I absolutely agree on bad days thing. Zombs has been very solid for SEN and one game that I linked is not going to make him a bad player suddenly. But from what I've seen, their utility usage is more than good for a team smoker. It's just that I thought Andersin is a slightly better player when it comes to defending the site(i.e A on Haven etc). He just doesn't fall that easy and somehow gets those headshots left and right, you know? Again it's imho ofc but I believe we can find some data on that.
Thanks for reminding LAN - best argument yet.

I mean Faze(top3) or XSET(top5) - the same XSET who managed to win SEN... or Soniqs - the team who managed to take a map out of SEN. I mean, don't tell me you don't know who Andersin is.

Ok, thank you.

BTW there is no need to downfrag my replies. I am just having a normal conversation - not a bait.

No, bro... not disregarding at all. Just having a convo. Maybe it would have been better to add to main post that "if Zombs left the team, who would you like to see in his place" kind of question to clear sus.

Just to add, I've been watching all SEN games from the beginning and majority of Valorants VODs available. So, I believe that I know how teams typically play and build their strats, at least in EU and NA. And econ/math grad in past plus some rl stats projects, so I am aware on how not to pull the stats by its ears to make a point. Was just looking for some convo on the topic. thnx

I see... but if one day(god forbid) Zomb would have left the team due to personal circumstances, who would you like to see in his place?
Sorry for asking too much btw....

Nah, sure it'll be a top tier team who'd pick him up. He is a solid player after all and frags, finnishing MVP of the match some times.

Before you indirectly accuse Andersin of being selfish and the one who just +W and frag type of player, I want to say that it is alright that you feel like Zombs is irreplacable(or at least there is no need) as the topic is sensitive due to fans support their players etc. But I have to disagree with you on your indirect argument that Andersin is incapable of playing such role dynamics. I mean they both play smokes on a pro level and understand how die last is important aspect in their games. But Andersin is showing some consistency that play in favour of him defending that say A site on Haven due to his fragging ability. Again, not that Zombs is a bad player is the question, but more like if there anyone else better than Zombs to make SEN even stronger - a question.

Ohh trust me, I know very well what zomb's function is in the team. And you're right about anchors in teams as every team has an anchor - not only SEN. However, a team can only be as strong as its weakest link, and zombs is not quite the strongest link let alone an anchor, right? Whereas Andersin keep proving himself to be consistent on top of his fragging ability, and they both play smokes as Viper/.... btw.

If you think that Zombs is irreplaceable then it's totally fine - we can agree to disagree.

Disagree, but I can explain. You see, when SEN played XSET, zombs didn't look quite convincing there:

https://www.vlr.gg/25198/xset-vs-sentinels-champions-tour-north-america-stage-3-challengers-1-ubsf

Andersin doesn't need to frag the hell out of it. He would only add a better balnce to SEN when things are not going quite well. He is a good clutcher and can duel like top duelist while playing controller. SEN have their system tuned up perfectly which is reflected in their W/L ration so I woldn't go as far as comparing TSM to SEN yet. But, just thoughts.

Not trying to undermine Zomb's impact but what IF Andersin was playing for SENTINELS instead of Zombs....

Do you think SEN would have been a perfect team in this case scenario? I mean who can beat such a hell of a team in the world, let alone NA?

SOLID performance from him today, diffing Harmon(-6) + assists ofc.

So what?

Your V1 got whooped by PIONEERS which is RANKED 18 atm.

LMFAO

Seriously, teams compete and improve to win but by making such treads you are not any better in terms of "Head" counts.

Since when Faze is considered a smaller team who don't have any notable faces?

Sup y'all

FFS support your own players! Having 1Head ping-pong in chat on Bang's uselessness or no impact is no SPORT. Poor kid finnished as MVP, having +5 on Andersin which won you the map, after all.

Most cringe was seeing many TSM fans writting in chat Bang this... Bang that... Bang no impact and useless, putting their boi down like that. Whilst that boi had been winning them the map. Turned out that he even finished the match as MVP. Kind of cringe, not supporting their own players.

"i have relationship ....in case my relationship fails, i wanna try to get her THEN"

^^^This response has cringe written all over it, and please don't take it as an offence. What you need to do is to sort out your current relationship, so that it won't fail, and tell that girl that you're seeing someone. Trust me she is not going to back off, if she found you hot etc. She will be there at the time when you decide to split with your current gf.

What I really mean is you need to take charge in your relationships, otherwise they will always fail. If you're still young, let it sink deeply. You don't want to become one of those creeps who are undecisive and passive takers. This is not kind of qualities ladies like and fantasize about, you know?

Perfectly executed... they've read them good though

"this girl...she is so pretty...."

Why no do very pretty things with her together? You oooK?

Man he looked tilted af on that webcam .... even blushing n stuff at some point. Felt sorry for him really.

It's funny that TH don't even have another duelists for occasions like that as all other four teammates are playing sntinels/controllers. Only paTiTek maybe, but he doesn't have enough recent experience. After Breeze and given yesterday's vs TENSTAR, I'd have taken al0orante off main duelist role and put paTiTek because it's obv that teams took notice of al0rante popping off, right? But it didn't happen so all blame goes on their system management. Al0rante is still good and nothing wrong in that other teams locking him down. But in the long-run, I'd consider another proper duelist if I was TH. They need one like it's blood from the nose right now.

His hs% is still somewhat there at least on Breeze but looks like Vitality studied the guy pretty well. Bramz and ceNder made sure to keep him contolled. Same vs TENSTAR, Russ and Stanley came on top off him in their duels.