ill reveal it in a few mins after some more responses

who had a better year

🐐

Fnatic players way too high. Fnatic had 1 playoff win the ENTIRE YEAR.

Stats need to be put into context

Otherwise Primmie is a top 3 player in the world

A blind, unbiased comparison

Who had a better year?

Player 1
2 events
0.98 R , 0.98 R, 1 Trophy

Player 2
1 event
0.99 R
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Now that 20 mins have passed. This is Zellsis vs Woot ON FLEX
Lets say that again: ON FLEX
Woot was not playing flex at shanghai, he was Jett/Raze only duelist. Pati was their flex at shanghai.
Thats why theres so many debates if Woot should go back to duelist from flex

I was getting fucking flamed for putting Zellsis as the flex of the year yesterday because you guys couldn't understand what everybody is saying is obvious when I take away the names.

"Boaster" : "Swing this guy he's silver"

Teams are literally calling him out in 1v1's LMAO

https://youtu.be/KIVf-RUuhFk?si=lI1hN6Ryk2NsKUk4

9:00 and 10:05 ^

7/8

Very well done bait that took alot of time, but a little too obvious

(very) Good player, doesn't play or act cringe. I have nothing bad to say about him

*3 matches, 2 of which they lost, compared to grand finalists and the eventual winners (inherently means they win more = better stats), and Mako. Obviously stats aren't everything tho, you should go back and watch some KRU vods and focus on heat, particularly the C9 playoff game and the fnatic game, and you'll probably see what i'm seeing.

Too tired rn to defend the other points but i made my case in #18 so i'll leave it there.

This

Zellsis' 'vibes' (+ his flexible agent pool) completely changed the nature of SEN when he swapped in for pancada (who is a better player than him, but still).

Sure Chronicle had great domestic results, but so does team liquid, so lets talk about internationals.

Madrid

In grand finals he played 4 agents on 3 roles (init, controller, and senti) and was a map 5 monster. This alone clears Chronicles entire year btw

Shanghai
Despite Zellsis not appearing, they actually both had the exact same amount of wins. And while we don't have ratings for this, we know Chron had a lower ACS than Zellsis at madrid. Also, Chron really shit the bed by going 8/16 -> 3/16 final two maps elimination game vs FUT

Champs
Chronicle is arguably not even a flex anymore, he only plays 2 agents. Zellsis is still playing 4 agents on 3 different roles. Zellsis also goes further than Chron, and plays better teams. Yes, Chron has a much higher rating, but if you only decide who's the best on each role by rating - which is what you'd be doing by declaring chronicle the best flex at champs (if he even is one at this point, see first line) - then you must also conclude that primmie is a top 3 player in the world, which is ridiculous.

Keep in mind, who had a better year and who is a better player are completely different things.

Senti is clearly Meteor

Boo small shoulders from not lifting trophies

Chronicle has one playoff win the entire year, and the only run Fnatic was relevant he only really played 2 agents (the real best flex this year is zellsis but people aren't ready for that convo it seems). The only line of reasoning that could make Chronicle the best flex this year would also make Primmie a top 3 player in the world.

I disagree with the duelist and smokes picks too but at least there can be a reasonable case made for them, for the three listed above there cannot.

Hard disagree. Outcome of that game really wasn't important. Elimination was on the line during that Icebox game, and literally EVERYTHING was on the line during that bind game. If Kangkang got OT with that Ace and won, it would go down as the greatest ace in the history of the game

Might have been the best finals ever. Bind might also have been the map of the year (probably still FPX vs TH icebox tho)

I guess only time will tell...

we shall revisit this

Someone should archive this thread as a textbook example of vlr's overreactions. Woot didn't even end up being TH's best player this year

how soon?

Bro Heat might be the most underrated player in the world, you tripping. Got grouped at champs and still ended with a higher rating than: Mako, S1mon, Sayf, Woot, Benjy, Karon and Miniboo.

Cloud having a bad season (statistically, gotta remember the context: giants are bums) only makes people underrate him more. This guy talent wise is on the same level as Trexx. He's my favorite player so i'll try to stop glazing here.

Saya is phenomenally talented but the only people who utilized him properly were the Guard. Just look at his past 60 and 90 day stats: https://www.vlr.gg/player/4545/sayaplayer

Only less than 1.00 on one agent (when they put him on sage for a game)

lol

Using top 4 is cherry picking (so was sentinelmain with finals appearances to try to find something EMEA was better in, but at least that actually is a relevant stat)

Trophies, Top 3 (they only go to bronze medals in real sports) , Finals appearences, and Average of best placements are more relevant

u right my bad

EMEA did alot better than last year, especially h2h. Every Emea team that didn't start with 'f' was getting railed last year

Overall, fairly close I would say

Madrid

SEN 2-1 TH
SEN 2-0 KC

Shanghai

G2 2-1 TH
LEV 1-2 FUT
100T 2-0 FUT
G2 2-1 TH
100T 0-2 TH
G2 0-3 TH

Champs

KRU 1-2 FNC
LEV 2-0 VIT
G2 0-2 FNC
LEV 2-0 TH
SEN 2-1 FNC
SEN 1-2 TH
LEV 1-3 TH

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

H2H Series: Americas 8-7 EMEA
H2H Maps: Americas 20-20 EMEA

Trophies: Americas 1-0 EMEA
Top 3 (Podium) Finishes: Americas 3-2 EMEA
Finals Appearances : Americas 1-2 EMEA

Average of Best Placements:
Americas (1+3+3)/3 - 2.33
EMEA (5?+2+2)/3 - 3.00

By region:
----------------------------------------------------------
Americas - Heat

Lowkey the best initiator in the region but nobody talks about him all eyes are on keznit
----------------------------------------------------------
EMEA - MY GOAT CLOUD

PLS GIVE CLOUD A GOOD TEAM NEXT YEAR
PLS GIVE CLOUD A GOOD TEAM NEXT YEAR
PLS GIVE CLOUD A GOOD TEAM NEXT YEAR

HM to: Sh1n and Cender
----------------------------------------------------------
Pacific - Sayaplayer

So much talent thats going to waste, a shame to see.

HM to : Rossy and Izu

----------------------------------------------------------
Don't know shit about china

WHY IS EVERYBODY SO MAD ABOUT THE LIST. IS IT PUTTING ZELLSIS AS THE #1 FLEX OVER WOOT? WOOT WAS NOT PLAYING FLEX AT SHANGHAI HE WAS JETT/RAZE ONLY DUELIST. THATS WHY THERES SO MANY THREADS ABOUT TAKING HIM OFF FLEX AND PUTTING HIM BACK ON DUELIST

ZELLSIS AS FLEX THIS YEAR (2 EVENTS)
0.98 + Trophy, 0.98

WOOT AS FLEX THIS YEAR (1 EVENT)
0.99

WHAT IS SO HARD TO FUCKING UNDERSTAND

better and better year are different things

So once your done trying to be edgy, what do you think I got wrong on the list?

The touch of greatness is infectious

What happened to GenG in those finals or at champs against that team that only made champs by points. You left that part out.

EDG won the biggest one but was really bad the rest of the year.

Gen.G was more consistent, but SEN went 2-2 with them, winning the important '2'.

People acting like its some insane take. They can literally be bare minimum #3.

Can you give a few sentence why. Cuz if anything Woot should be above mazino then right?

So my mother's partner was wrong but you wouldn't change anything in the list?

The list is perfect then!

Benjy was not the better than Meteor this year bro. Meteor dunked on him in a finals and even when he lost to them he was frying

Bro N4rrate didn't win a single game internationally this year and KC was only good regionally during kickoff. This doesn't mean I think Zellsis is better individually than N4rrate, but that he had a better year. I don't understand why this concept is so hard for people to understand. I think Less is a better senti than Meteor, but obviously Meteor was the best Senti this year. This isn't that hard people.

who would you put as the best flex then? Keep in mind Woot at Shanghai was not playing flex

Very bad, but he subbed in for a Champs MVP and played a huge range of agents (KJ, Brim, Viper, Kayo, Breach) and was a big part of why they lifted that trophy

I know, and they fully deserve the title of World Champs, but they were literally really bad for the rest of the year. Like 5 rounds in 2 maps against a team that made 1 Lan this year bad.

Zellsis Bind + Icebox performance earned him that spot

I know but you can't take away that EDG was straight up bad internationally until champs

what would you change?

This is my opinion

Best Initiator - Riens: A no brainer, clearly the initiator of the year. Best EMEA player of the year. Will battle with Leo for the EMEA init title next year, will be exciting to watch.
Best Smokes - Karon: Would unironically be Tenz if he played more than Omen. But Karon is very close performance wise and a beast. Crazy he was just a ranked player before this.
Best Duelist - Zekken: I know KangKang just lit up the world, but Texture and Zekken had better years. I have to give it to Zekken because he got the better of Texture when it mattered most.
Best IGL - Munchkin : Could have gone with Johnqt for good reason, but while John's firepower is better, Munchkin is also a shooter and I think his calling is better, especially defensive rotates. Also no deadlock incidents.
Best Senti - Meteor: He's a fucking god
Best Flex - Zellsis : Honestly I don't even wanna give it to him but he really stepped it up

Best Team - SEN: I know people are gonna say GENG, but SEN went 2-2 with them and bested them in the '2' that mattered most (GF and elim match)
Biggest Frauds - NRG: I don't need to explain this, honorable mention to NAVI management tho
Best Event - Shanghai: It's close between shanghai and madrid but i'm going shanghai. Champs had by far the best final but the rest was pretty meh
Best team to watch - Heretics: They had alot of gigabanger games, all throughout the year too. Internationally and regionally.

Now re-read the first line

The lower vs upper bracket record is basically even

Bro just mad Heretics couldn't do what SEN, EG, and FPX did

Diagnosis: Skill Issue

Dark Knight Trilogy still the best superhero movies ever made ong

nvm

Fine, I'll be not so nice about it

Bro only tough when his team is way up 😂😂😂
Pussy boy too scared to keep that same energy when it's even 😂😂😂
Cowards don't win championships 😂😂😂

Warning: A lotta yap

I've noticed a trend amongst champions, particularly the last three and to a lesser extent acend (they were pretty undeserving and we all know it), so I'll focus on them. None of them were favorites to win or the best team of the year up until that point. Every one of those three had to experience utter failure before they could become champions. And they all had to maintain a full belief in themselves throughout the 'lows' to eventually reach the top. I call this 'climbing the mountain', they all had to start from the bottom and face an seemingly insurmountable task to get to the top. They had to fully prove they possessed the heart of a champion before they could become one.

• Loud
  For Loud, that mountain had a name. Optic. Their rivals who had bested them in their first finals, and embarrassed them by grouping them at Copenhagen. This marked the 'low' for Loud. The mountain lied ahead of them at champs. Once again, Optic bests Loud, and even when Loud finally wins one in uppers, when Optic came out of the lowers, it appeared that they were marching their way towards their destiny. The team that got the better of them again and again was here to do it one final time. 'Optic never loses rematches' 'We always beat these guys'. But Loud never doubted that they could reach the summit, and they did that day.

• EG
  No team better encapsulates the struggle necessary for success than EG. People questioned whether they even belonged in franchising. They set history as the first team to get 13-0'd. If their season didn't turn around, the roster would have blown up and none of them would likely have a good chance of being in franchising in the future. But a unique event occurred, Mibr gives them a lifeline, a chance at redemption. Their climb started there. They weren't even supposed to make it. A twist of fate gets them into playoffs. Then, a ticket to Tokyo. A miracle run that turns supposed chumps into champs.

• EDG
  Again, we see the pattern of a reaching a low before we reach the highs. For EDG, the back to back embarrassment at madrid and home-turf at shanghai would have killed the expectations of anybody that didn't have the heart of a champion. But EDG did, and despite the doubters - especially their own harsh fans - they showed up and proved to the world that they had what it takes, something they knew within themselves at the bottom of the mountain before they reached the top.

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"Why do we fall, Sir? So that we can learn to pick ourselves up"
"You still haven't given up on me?"
"Never"
Alfred and Bruce, Batman Begins

so you are upset when he stands up and when he doesn´t stand up

Lmao thats a really creative way to twist it, 10/10

Lets ask it again, why does he only seem to stand up and show confidence when his team is comfortably up? He didn't even do it when benjy wins a HUGE round to even the score.

My theory is that all this confidence and flexing is superficial, some might even describe that behavior as cowardly.

Where was the standing and screaming when benjy clutched (to put EDG onto an eco too) to make it 2-2 on final map? Pretty reserved reaction out of him on the replay i'd say

Or do his legs only work when he's up on the scoreboard?