*when the other top teams couldn't fully practice with or outright play with their best players

If anything, I would rather use indirect evidence. You're comparing two games in different metas with different teams over a year apart. There is so much different, it's basically two completely separate games. Indirect isn't much better, but it's not as bad as these two games are.

If anything the chamber meta favored fnatic. A good chamber could absolutely tear you apart if you weren't careful (not exactly how PRX plays). On top of that, Forsaken wasn't a great chamber, Derke was.

Sure, but it's always, playing against somewhat similar teams doesn't mean you're going to be good against that specific one. Being good against EMEA is not the same as playing FNC

Original point from #103 that started this chain is claim that we have reason to believe PRX's playstyle is successful/matches up well against fnatic's. If you have a good track record against teams that play similar, that's evidence in favor of that point, even if it's not a magical 100% guarantee.

PRX got absolutely crushed at Tokyo(Basically their only rounds was when they were one loss away from losing the map)

This is almost circular reasoning:

Arguing over how PRX would have done vs Fnatic at Tokyo if they weren't nerfed -> Discussing Sub-topic about how their styles matchup -> You don't think PRX is a bad matchup (or think Fnatic is advantaged) -> you back this up by talking about how they did at Tokyo against nerfed PRX

when FNC had worse support players

Not gonna pretend for a second that they're as good as their replacements, but it's not like they were bums either. They're still active t1 pros (as of the end of last season), not like they were playing streamers...

Can you link the video? Not sure which one you mean here

https://youtu.be/2YVsAMmnaBY?si=EPKjx-kFxMD1Hsli

In 2024, yeah, but it was the best strategy in 2023.

I was talking about the european playstyle being generally unsuccessfull against PRX's here

windows -> task manager -> performance -> top right

I'm pretty sure he is, but even in the small chance he doesn't it doesn't affect the prompt lol

no its just as a joke, since it's offseason there's no team in particular to root for

yet by commenting you are helping keep the thread alive

reviving this

french people is an oxymoron

I'll get to #113 sometime later, because as you definitely understand from writing it, it takes a lot of time and energy.

But this one will be relatively short so I'll do it now

The "most direct evidence" you are claiming is that PRX beat FNC about a year before, when they had completely different teams. That is not a good example at all.

That is quite literally the most direct evidence you can have. It's the same teams with 7/10 of the players being identical. Any other comparison would have to be more indirect (how X did against Z vs how Y did against Z).

PRX being good against other EMEA teams is also completely pointless, teams have different playstyles and unless EVERYOBE from EMEA had the same playstyle this means nothing.

Not everybody from the same region plays EXACTLY the same, but it's not controversial that there are general characteristics that define the regional playstyles. EMEA is famously slow placed. That almost certainly has something to do with PRX's success against those teams (unfamiliar/uncomfortable with that type of pace). From Sideshow's casting of PRX vs Guild :

"The bull against the matador. And we'll see if the matador ends up getting gored at the end of this... PRX are gonna charge in, play aggressive, get most of their kills in the first 10 seconds of the round, and plant within 20 ... no one else in the tournament plays like that"

Compare that with the plant time from the previously linked video (60 seconds), literally 3x the pace.

The FNC >> PRX part I thought was obvious. PRX are an extremely agressive team, but FNC's defaults are able to counter very well and also ensure they have the info to make a quick retake/attempted site hold.

This is kinda just restating/summarizing your previous points, so i'll just do the same. That didn't work in their last matchup - which is the most direct comparison you can get (also if you listen to their comms video, especially on bind, you can hear them get kinda tilted by it "I don't know what is going on" "This is so funny... They will do this for 10 more rounds") - and this general playstyle has been mostly unsuccesfull as well.

damn thats crazy, but the mickey mouse clubhouse still don't count

1>1*

now that I think about it, ShanksFan69 is probably a no

I have one and i'm sure many others do too. I like to think not every person on this site is a babysasuke or sentinelmain

And stop skipping leg day, stronger legs/glutes = harder you can smash your girl

1 International Major > 1*

You're basically asking about periodization, in which there is literally a giant literature and no single answer. I personally like the 5/3/1 protocol. If you wanna read about it in general you can go to jim wendler's website. Here's a quick write-up/review

But you're probably lazy and want me to just give you a full guide, so Ill do that

1. Go to this website - https://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator

   • Click "Simplest Strength"
   • Click "Real Rep Maxes"
   • Input your known PR's to the relevant fields, be very conservative ('press' is standing barbell overhead press, 'incline press' is incline barbell chest press). If you don't know them, find them out
   • Input your barbell weight : standard barbells are 45 lbs/ 20 kgs
   • Input what plates you have, or your gym has (if you don't know, just input 10 for "45, 25, 10, 5, and 2.5" and 0 for everything else, as this is generally what most commercial gyms have)
   • Click "Option 1: Fresher"
   • Click "5/3/1 Standard"
   • Leave "Joker Sets" Empty
   • Click "First Set Last"
   • Click "Deload 1 Standard"

2. Click Calculate Program

The idea behind this program is that each day you will have a main lift (Press - Deadlift - Bench - Squat), which you will work up to a '+' set which you will take to max effort and do as many possible reps as you can (and another max effort set after that that i've added, this one is called AMRAP - as many reps as possible - which you do the same thing. This was what was added by clicking "First set last").

The website will tell you exactly how many reps/weight you will do each set with. 5 x 95 means 5 reps at 95 pounds. The numbers in brackets are what weight plates go on each side of the barbell, which is a nice touch.

These + sets work in 4 week cycles, a 5+ week, a 3+ week, a 1+ week, and a deload which you take easy. It sounds complicated, but if you look at the program that was printed, it makes sense pretty quickly. It is crucial that you do the '+' sets with max effort, as that is what your progression depends on.

After the main lift, you do accessory work. This is what the different templates change. This particular one which I made you do has close grip bench, front squats, etc. After that it just names a body part, eg: Lats or Triceps. You choose an exercise of your liking which targets these parts (i.e. Lat pulldown, Tricep Pushdown), and do the prescribed reps. These should obviously be done at or close to failure, after a couple warmup sets of course.

So if it says hamstrings 10-20, 10-20, 10-20, after warming up you're doing 3 hard sets of 10-20 reps (whatever weight is appropriate for that) of hamstring curls for example.

----------------------------------
How you progress depends on how you did on your '+' set for the day on the main lift

If on the 5+ day, you managed 8 or more reps on the + set, you're good
If on the 3+ day, you managed 6 or more reps on the + set, you're good
If on the 1+ day you managed 3 or more reps on the + set, you're good

3. If you're good for all of the 3 weeks (last week is an ez deload), then you go back to the top where you input your PRs:
   • add 5 lbs to each upper body lift (press, bench press, etc)
   • add 10 lbs for every lower body lift (squat, deadlift, etc)

If you fail to meet those rep goals at any time, multiply your input for the relevant lift(s) by 0.9, at the end of the 4 - week training cycle

Remember that this recalibrating is only done once every 4 weeks, after you've fully gone through the entire printed cycle that came when you hit "Calculate Program".

4. Repeat forever, tryout different templates when you get bored of one.

Probably the mechanically best NA T2 duelist (reduxx included). Has alot of experience too, he's been in t2 grinding for a LONG time. Definitely not getting as much spotlight as he deserves in rostermania (everyone focused on N4rrate Verno Zander Derke, etc). But alot of teams (especially G2, NRG, and EG) should be looking to try to pick him up.

You failed to meet the conditions for a successful rebuttal (see the last paragraph, but you did it generally too).

But since this clearly took a lot of effort, I'll give a semi-serious reply

I'm gonna stick to everything between 'first : ' and 'essentially at champs' so I keep this under the character limit, but I will get to the rest in follow-up

2024 requires a much more aggressive playstyle, you need to do mid round reclears, more fakes, etc… to be able to do well. 2023 Valorant was more about the info game. Being able to check where they are, deny/gain information, etc… was the most important things. FNC were really good at 2023 Valorant. They mostly suck at 2024 Valorant. It’s a big reason why they started to do much worse in 2024 vs 2023. (Though part of it is also the anti-strat). Every Top 2024 Team was very good at knowing when to take space/push out. Every Top 2023 Team(outside of maybe PRX) was good at the info game

Everybody did mid round reclears and fakes in 2023 (fns had somebody retaking the wrong site in 2023).

Alot of these points are too general (by what basis can you say denying/gaining info the most important thing, or even more important in 2023 vs 2024?).

But the bigger problem is that some of them are straight up wrong - 2024 was by far less aggressive than 2023, until arguably the emergence of Neon at the very end.

The biggest factor being the nerf of skye killing double duelist comps. Compare the LA grand final vs the Madrid grand final

LA: 6 double duelist comps - Both on Split, PRX on Ascent, Both on Bind, PRX on Lotus (counting chamber as a duelist because lets be real, he is and always was, 1 trip ain't stopping a site hit)

Madrid : 2 double duelist comps - GENG on Breeze and Split (and at shanghai finals they only kept the double duelist on breeze, which was the only 1 in that entire series)

Besides the death of double duelist, 2024 Valorant was extremely retake heavy - SEN's Madrid run was a shining example of this.

Furthermore, we saw stuff like no duelist comps altogether become popular on icebox. So your claim isn't really matching reality.

This directly leads to the problem of that 2024 performance is not a good indicator of what might have happened in 2023, which makes A14-18 and B5 mostly irrelevant. (Part of this is an opinon, but I think it makes sense.)

The more time further out, the less weight we can put on it, obviously. But let's imagine for a sec if the shoes were on the other foot. Imagine If Alfajer (at the time EMEA MVP) (and eventual Tokyo MVP) wasn't at Tokyo with Fnatic. Then imagine a pubg streamer replaced him, not even a pro or a streamer that mainly plays val. Then, PRX smacked FNC around. Finally, imagine at the very next tournament (just a month later with no matches in-between), FNC with Alfajer is better than PRX, and this trend continues for a long time afterwards, regardless of meta change. What do you think this implies?

The other one major point is that LOUD’s playstyle hardcounters FNC. FNC like to play slow, have one person at every contestion point, and then decide what to do based on what the opponents give up. (E.g, being able to rotate from hearing where PRX pushed out, or using Utility to find them doubled up somewhere, or where the op is) But, LOUD like to do solo/double pushes, which means LOUD is often taking 2v1s or 1v1s before FNC can get set up, which in turn make the round spiral out of control. This is why DRX 13-1’d FNC, if you watch the game, DRX just kept doing these solo/double pushes, getting a man advantage, then each player of FNC feels pressured to make a play to even it, but fails, making the round worse and worse. Combined with Val’s snowball problem, it just became a complete disaster.

Even if we assume it was purely LOUD's playstyle which led to their victory (they were also just better). It's not like LOUD is the only team capable of doing those things, or that other playstyle's can't be successful vs FNC. In fact, the most direct evidence that we have suggests PRX's playstyle is successful against Fnatic. Further still, PRX are famously successful against the EMEA playstyle, with a literal reputation as the 'European Reapers'.

FNC also hard counters PRX, but this time you can probably guess why. I don’t think I need to explain it, and PRX got absolutely stomped on by FNC at Tokyo, I do not believe for a second PRX could’ve won with something unless he somehow becomes god and gets three every round.

Total Bullshit. Re-read everything in the paragraph above. There is literally nothing to support this view. In fact, every single piece of evidence available (B5/A11-A18) contradicts this view. And this exact type of low-effort sentence was banned for a reason in the rules (and your exact argument was used as an example). 'I don't need to explain it' Then you can't prove Fnatic was great.

Will do a part 2 sometime soon

1. Riens or Leo
2. Oxy or Keznit
3. Trent or C0m
4. S0m or Zander
5. Flashback or Davai
6. Mako or Karon
7. Benjyfishy or Alfajer
8. Valyn or Johnqt
9. Cryo or Demon1

And most importantly

10. Inspire or Screwface

people wonder why Lock in is 🐁 when their best defense of the format is 'Just dont lose'

LMAO

Maybe RIOT can host a Lock-In 2.0 where you only play a single elim bo1, and instead of the full game its just the first pistol round. The team that wins it can be called the best in the world right? Just don't lose amirite?
------------------------------------------------------------------

SEN wasn't considered the best until they won madrid, no matter how they looked in the offseason. Right after kickoff and before Madrid who was the best team in the world? Nobody knew, but there were 8 contenders. SEN became the best when they proved it vs the best, under conditions of competitive integrity.

https://www.vlr.gg/406839/underrated-agent-map-combos

I tried to put yall on game, he's so good for attack if you can get bomb down without man disadvantage

Yes you do have not to choke, if not choking wasn't a requirement for winning, prx would have 2 trophies

You missed the point. You can't just dismiss the problem of a non-competitive format by saying it just "requires your team not to choke" like you did. That's why I compared it to a Random Agent Select tourney, because the exact same dismissal can be made.

Whether it is representative to the rest of the year is meaningless

Actually, if the tourney has serious issues, and the results don't match up with the experience of the rest of the year, that's extremely strong evidence that we shouldn't have taken it seriously. There's a reason we didn't crown 100T the best team in the world just cause of RBHG, or whoever else woulda won it. To actually prove you're the best, you have to be the best under conditions of high competitive integrity (do it at a real event)

N4rrate if you wanna hear him flame both teams nonstop lmao

NicoMachine

Associate Data Scientist (basically between junior and a full level 1) for just over a year

I was moreso inspired by your use of the phrase "World Champions"

Your wish is granted :)

scroll up to the top of ur page to see why thats wrong

Prime FNC was never great

The only non 🐁 event they won they only won because the other best teams at the time couldn't practice with or play with their best players

Random agent select is completely different as players specialise in certain agents, single elim just means you play a normal series 1 time

You still just have to not choke though? Or do you now understand the difference between a format designed to select for the best team vs one that doesn't?

At the time of them playing, yes

We don't actually know who was good/bad at the time of Lock-In. That's why you need a regular season to establish yourself, a qualifier to identify the top contenders, and a format designed to select for the best team. That's how we know FPX was the best team at the time of Copenhagen, LOUD the best at Istanbul, etc. Without those things you have a wild west. Do you actually seriously believe 2023 KC's (might be the worst franchise team ever) performance vs LOUD was a serious result, achieved under conditions of competitive integrity?

you have a chance to seriously prove that. Go for it. The great wall of text remains strong, with the only flaw being a minor point about cauanzin being a rookie

all that profit and they've still never been #1 team ever 🥶🥶🥶

Difference is SEN was undeniably the best team in the world at some point (twice) in time. Fnatic.....

thats good im taking that

right????

Why are so many people in ranked dogshit at smokes? Talking about orb smokes in particular, so not viper/harbor

I'm in fairly high elo and so many people literally can't even do the basics right. I know it's not as brainless as running it down on reyna, but it's not that hard.

Like on ascent A heaven they're putting them all the way out so people can walk out with them. Or they're just not smoking when you're hitting site and only do it after you've basically lost the round dying to crossfires

And then when you mention it "BRO I don't play smokes !!!"

Fraudnatic are less accomplished than Ange1 and Redgar, who both got 1 legit

1 > 1*

I guess Xeppa, Dephh, and Russ must be the greatest players of all time

I also don't understand why so many Fnatic flairs take so much pride in not being able to read, but if you think of who they support, it actually does make sense in a way

Firstly, you acknowledged the point is true. Nothing has been refuted.

The playoffs for the World Cup is single elim but no-one starts going "L format" because of that, it has prestige because every country has a chance to win

real sports != esports, And are you sure about no-one?. Most events that aren't double elim have to do with either logistics or physicality or because of variance that is uncontrollable. The world cup would be extremely long (logistics)(brings the city its hosted in to a halt). It's not a good idea to have multiple boxing bouts to decide the champ or for the superbowl matchup to be multiple times for athlete safety reasons (physicality). If you ran or swam the 200m final multiple times, you could feasibly have multiple winners. How do you decide which is the 'real' outcome? You can't, so you just run it once (variance). etc.

Single elim just requires your team not to choke

Could say the exact same thing about random-agent select.

If any team at lockin like Nrg Loud c9 or 100T should of won(I name these teams because you're an americas cringer) why didn't they, because they played worse than the team that beat them or crumbled

Do you think the strength of Furia's performance vs FNC and KC's vs LOUD at Lock-in were solidly representative of their true strength and should be taken as a serious result? What about GENG vs LOUD? or C9 vs PRX?

Second not gonna cut it unfortunately, when we're talking about the GOAT we're talking about the highest possible standard, so we have to nitpick.

Also, even after Loud won, Yay was still by far the consensus best player in the game

He's the most accomplished, but by most definitions of GOAT you have to be considered the best player in the world at some point in time to be in the convo of the greatest of all time

EDG is the best team in the world, something fnatic has never been. Even Ange1 and Redgar are more accomplished than Fraudnatic.

Jawgemo 3rd, after aspas and zekken

Com plays fade and viper aswell, so scan initiator that flexes to viper

Ethan plays flash initiator (Kayo Skye Breach) and sometimes flexes to Yoru (basically another flash initiator)

Jawgemo too low, also where are ethan and com?

everyone on Team Horrible got small shoulders from not lifting trophies 🥱🥱

bro did not watch loud vs edg sunset at madrid

he's a pretty decent off-meta pick

agree everything but yoru icebox, thats literally by far the worst yoru map in the game

especially like the sova bind, I actually once won a tourney playing sova on bind

not a big bind omen believer tbh

but heavy fw icebox omen, especially before they changed the crates near B cubby

i play with/against a harbor on abyss fairly often actually

maybe its just me though

harbor is not underrated on abyss LOL

but the rest I agree

another good one is Phoenix Sunset