Not that i know of, but reading (the first 2 lines) definitely is

'Accuse the other of that which you are guilty'

https://www.vlr.gg/412408/zekken-belly-button-theory

added

this post is not about the goat debate

But if your criteria for GOAT is "who was the best in their prime, which lasted a meaningful period of time" - which is a common criteria - Then it's yay. Nobody had a prime like him. ESPORTS player of the year.

I don't think he's the goat because that's not my criteria, but he's obviously in the discussion.

ty!

thought about it but I already put riens and I think he's TH's best player by a good margin

added

Everyone knows the GOAT debate : Aspas Tenz Chronicle Less Yay (HM to Sacy, the most decorated)

This thread is not about that. It's about who has the best chance of being in the goat discussion in the future, disregarding those players listed above who are already in it.

Its not ordered outside of the general sections, AND ITS OPINION

----------------------------------------------------
Top Contenders (Most likely)
----------------------------------------------------
Zekken - He already MVP'd a trophy winning run, and had an insane resume long before that. He is also in a prime position to tear it up next year, and might even get another. Edit: some of yall musta forgot

Leo - Might already be the greatest init ever (although im still gonna give that to Sacy). But I think we all know he can get alot done in the future

KangKang - Definitely passes the eye test. A World Champion with the bo5 kill record from that grand finals. Would probably need at least another finals or 2 more top 3 finishes to be in the discussion, as his only real run was his most recent. Definitely a possibility.

----------------------------------------------------
Contenders (Could happen if things go right)
----------------------------------------------------

Demon1 - Already a world champion, with the greatest performance in modern val history. A bad 2024 sets him back a bit, but he is definitely gifted enough to be able to do it in the future if things go right

Mako - In some people's eyes he's already the greatest smokes ever, a trophy would easily seal the deal. And another finals after that might be enough to convince people that he's the greatest regardless of role. DRX has been cooking recently so he's in a good spot right now (in my eyes at least).

----------------------------------------------------
Fringe Contenders (not particularly likely or unlikely)
----------------------------------------------------

Jawgemo - Already a world champion and the greatest raze ever. He would have to MVP a trophy winning run to seal the deal. Most people say that he's in the best position to do this of all the players currently listed, but it's way easier said than done

Derke - He has the stats, but we have 4 years of evidence that he's not good enough to be the best player on a trophy winning team. Like Jawgemo, he would have to MVP a trophy winning run to be in serious goat convos. Way easier said than done.

----------------------------------------------------
Unlikely (distant from the GOAT debate + current situation makes it unlikely to get closer)
----------------------------------------------------

Pancada - MVP'd a champs run, on arguably the greatest team ever. Thats a huge achievement, but he's definitely in a rough spot rn that makes it unlikely he'll do much in the future. And he'd have to do alot

Nats - is on Liquid

Texture/Meteor - Already (co)MVP'd a trophy and was in a finals before that, but like pancada and nats, are not really in a position for success right now. And they'd still have to do alot.

Cned - Is a champion but.... it hasn't been good since then and I just don't alot in store in the future.

Shao - MVP'd a trophy but... it hasn't been good since then and I just don't see alot in store in the future

Alfajer - MVP'd a trophy but... He's not even the best on his own team, and I don't even think he is currently better than Benjy. He'd have to do alot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Top Future Talents (not even close to the goat debate, but has the talent to get there eventually)

Primmie - Arguably ALREADY the most talented player in the world mechanically (although i need to see him more on the awp before i give him that)

Oxy - is on C9 (the only thing holding him back)

Riens - already had a phenomenal year individually, looks poised to match it again

Cryo - He's nuts. Was one of the greatest chambers back in the day, was/is a great jett, awper, and rifler. Insanely Talented, but probably needs a better agent pool/ role fix.

Verno - Just compare his tracker to primmie's. His TRS score, ACS, KAST, and HS% are neck-and-neck. The talent is definitely there and the ceiling is HIGH.

Sayf - He's nuts. Imo the best EMEA duelist pure skill wise. Needs to start being nuts at internationals. And continue playing lol

Sayonara - He's nuts. The talent is there

Reduxx - He's nuts. The talent is there

Meiy - He's nuts. The talent is there

Hyunmin - He's nuts. The talent is there

Flashback - He's nuts. The talent is there

Lol, go and watch some matches where he clutches against Loud and BLG

https://youtu.be/1I_wiUETIaM?si=sBik13zgpOOKkmJb

Boaster 1v3 vs BLG

1 player 45 hp
1 player 3 hp

-----------------------------------------------------------------
https://youtu.be/Nikhikg7Xhk?si=1GJUQmrvFcUlNneM

Boaster 1v2 vs BLG

1 player 10 hp (dinked 140)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Leo, the exact same tourney, vs DRX

https://youtu.be/1m41Hp4gfOY?si=upmETlcEVtI3suSD

4k round with a 1v2 clutch at the end

All 4 kills full health

That stat is actually a perfect example of why stats don't tell the whole story. It's very likely that most of the situations he was in his opponent was probably already dinked 140 or something by his teammates and he finishes the job

Nobody actually thinks he was the most clutch player in the world (let alone on his team, shoutout Leo).

In fact, if your life was on the line and you had to choose between 2023 Leo, Chronicle, Alfa, or Boaster to win a 1v1 vs a random to save your life, the debate would be about which of the first 3 you would choose.

the best clutcher on that team was Leo

i guess pointing out someone is frying in t2 is too much for you to handle for some weird reason

https://www.vlr.gg/event/stats/2071/challengers-league-2024-north-america-stage-2

wow would you look at that: 1.19. Basically the same shit throughout stage 2

https://www.vlr.gg/event/stats/1971/challengers-league-2024-north-america-stage-1

dang and 1.21 in stage 1

Spot the pattern yet?

he's 1.2+ Rating on 3 different roles in the second highest level of competitive val

just click on his 90d stats

miniboo and botster

I may be overreacting but i think hes should be suspended for a year, or at least half of next season, there is truly no room for that word in 2024. I'm working on a twit longer as we speak... This is one of the worst moments of the offseason so far...

probably commit to neon on jett maps

lmaoooo thats lame af, at least come up with a good reason to hate him if your gonna be a hater

https://tracker.gg/valorant/profile/riot/PRX%20something%23112/overview

Has been playing ALOT of Sova and Fade 👀👀👀

That C0m gapped trexx in an elimination match:

https://www.vlr.gg/378672/leviat-n-vs-team-vitality-valorant-champions-2024-decider-c

and ended with better playoff stats than Woot, Kingg, S1mon, and Benjyfishy. Put some respect on tha Champ

ready for a hot one?

TH won't even be a top 3 emea team by halfway through next season

play swiftplay

SEN G2 NRG (any order) are almost certainly the top 3

And the worst is the people who go smokes and one-way the wall

Like why are you even playing tdm at that point, you're not getting any better by doing that shit

its a choice between:

most proven/least talented

even mix of both

least proven/most talented

Also

• Primmie can definitely play more than just jett
• Raze/Neon is already 2 of the 3 you need in the current meta
• When Alfa has played duelist he was very good
• He's not known for his exceptional micro when he plays KJ/Cypher, he's known for tapping heads

plat cringelords who shift walk around with a phantom in dm would like to have a word with you

I get that

but primmie is the truth bro, it aint that strange to pick him

https://youtu.be/jE_K3NwnOzM?si=iK5QkN-8wwfn-Axr

You start a team and have the draft one as your full-time duelist, which one do you pick?

(Sayf will not bitch about it and will be content on the role, as will the rest)

added to HM's

Also seeing Shao on jett on breeze is crazy lol

I thought I had that Icebox in the HM, but i guess i forgot, added it now

Also added the Sacy Ascent from that series, keep in mind this is for individual maps, and the bar is so high that the 5th place is the Single Map Kill Record

At the end of the day, this is my opinion, you are free to make your own list

I considered 4 factors:

• The performance itself - Rating, ACS, etc
• The Setting - the more prestigious the setting, the better
• How it holds up in the present day
• Other factors

Honorable Mentions (not ordered or ranked):

Yay Haven vs 100T
QCK Sunset vs EDG
Woot Sunset and Bind vs Navi
Woot Icebox vs FPX
Tehbotol Breeze vs Optic
Tenz Breeze vs F4Q
Aspas Icebox vs C9
Zekken Split vs GenG
Less Icebox vs Optic
Sacy Ascent vs Optic
Shao Haven vs DRX

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#5 Aspas Lotus vs Sentinels

1.92 Rating, 372 ACS , 47/19, +28

The Performance itself: 10/10
The Setting : 6/10
How it holds up in the present day : 10/10
Other factors : 9/10

Total Score : 35/40

The only performance here that wasn't at an international, this Legendary performance set the single map kill record, in a fashion that will likely never be broken, earning it full points in the performance section. Furthermore, it was done in recent history, on comps that will continue to be meta unless there is major update. The only weakness is the setting, not done at an international event, and instead in a regular regional matchup, although he does get a point for doing it against the still-hot SEN, fresh off of their Madrid win.

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#4 Cryo Bind vs FUT

2.49 Rating, 439 ACS, 25/4, +21

The Performance Itself : 9.5/10
The Setting : 7.5/10
How it holds up in the present day : 10/10
Other factors : 9/10

Total Score : 36/40

The stats you see at the top are actually not for this game, those are Cryo's stats in the 13-1 stomp of Loud on Ascent done domestically a little later on. While we don't have a rating for shanghai, he actually had higher ACS in that game than the Loud game, while on Brim instead of Jett: 452 ACS, 32/11, +21. Since that it is now in perspective, the high score for Performance/Other are self-evident. Done at a recent international, he also gets full credit for how it holds up. He gets a respectable score for the setting as well, being it was at a masters playoffs, albeit it was the opening match against not a particularly good team.

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#3 Marved Haven vs Zeta Division

1.80 Rating, 342 ACS, 35/16, +19

The Performance Itself : 9/10
The Setting : 9.5/10
How it holds up in the present day : 9/10
Other factors : 9/10

Total Score : 36.5/40

35 Kills. No, it is not the International Kill Record, which is 38 by Tehbotol on Breeze, and was almost beaten by Woot on Icebox. Yet, it was damn close, and done in less rounds than both of those matches, earning it a 9 on performance. Furthemore it was done in a lower final, which is about as elite as you can get, earning a 9.5 on setting. Even though this game is now considered a part of valorant history, the way he played omen has still not been significantly improved upon in years since, holding up well to modern standards. And speaking of valorant history, when you talk about 'The Iceman', this haven game is still the first thing you point to as a reminder of what he was capable of. Legacy defining, earning a high mark on other factors.

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#2 Nats Fracture vs ACEND

2.37 Rating, 394 ACS, 26/3, +23

The Performance Itself : 10/10
The Setting : 10/10
How it holds up in the present day : 7/10
Other factors : 10/10

Total Score : 37/40

The numbers speak for themselves. A nearly flawless game in a champs final, earning perfect scores in performance and setting. Furthermore, this game put Gambit in the Lead in the most important time, and should've broken Acend's confidence, earning it a full score in other factors. The only flaw is that it has not stood well to the test of time. Like it or not, this is archaic valorant, and a level of play that, even though was the highest possible back in 2021, would be considered very low today, so points must be docked for that.

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#1 Less Split vs PRX

2.33 Rating, 424 ACS, 24/7, +17

The Performance Itself : 9.5/10
The Setting : 9/10
How it holds up in the present day : 9.5/10
Other factors : 10/10

Total Score : 38/40

Despite not being as iconic, this relatively unknown performance is almost certainly the most dominant of all time.

Performance-Wise, it is essentially neck and neck with Nats' 26/3 (and the Rating stat hates deaths), with a notably higher ACS. If it's not a 10, its about as close as it could be.

Setting-Wise, it was done at Champs Playoffs, in upper Semis vs a Finalist. There's really not much further than that, a 9 is well deserved

It holds up incredibly well, in fact, many of the comps and macro ideas played today are identical to what teams were using back then. If the skye nerf was reverted, the meta today would be almost exactly what it was when this game was played.

But what truly sets this performance apart? Remember the Cryo performance at #4? The spectacular part of that, that earned him high credit in the final category, was that he did it on Brimstone, a role that it is notoriously hard to frag on. Brim however, is a meta agent on Bind. What makes Less's performance truly exceptional is that he did it on not just a Senti, but KJ. An agent that is not even meta on Split. Cypher is notably better both on that map specifically and in terms of general fragging. In fact, some other teams even played Chamber if they were not playing Cypher. The only other team at Champs to play KJ on Split was DRX, with RB averaging a ~ 0.70 Rating on her across 3 games. Make no mistake, Less's performance in this match is the equivalent of having a mythical performance while playing Harbor on Ascent instead of Omen.

Lmk some more (tier 1 only)

Gonna make another thread ranking them, maybe make a top 5 ranking.

so far i can think of:

Nats Fracture vs Acend
Tenz Breeze vs F4Q
Less Split vs PRX
Aspas Lotus vs SEN
Cryo Ascent vs Loud
Cryo Bind vs Fut
Aspas Icebox vs C9
QCK Sunset vs EDG
Woot Sunset and Bind vs Navi (lmfao had to include both)

Spectator mode speedrun : peek an angle Less is holding

'I actually agree, if he brings this round back he's the GOAT'

nah that title belongs to Less

real shit - carrying a team with botster the way he does is herculean

The last game of this vod (sunset) : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2263654790

Mf is actually the harbringer of death

The 4th round (starts 5:42:40) in particular is actually nuts like holy fuck

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the 42 bomb (no OT) on sinatraa and inspire : https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2257271175 (starts 2:54:10, also sunset)

Start Less and put Alfa on duelist

At long last
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also note # of duelists has nothing to do with how aggressive a team is. It's somewhat correlated, but not a direct factor.

Yeah i'm not gonna lie, this is a pretty crazy take. I know I'm supposed to back this up with something, but in this case I think it's pretty self-evident why double duelist is inherently more aggressive. I think virtually everybody who follows val comp would say that double duelist being more aggressive than single/none is non-controversial.

And I heavily disagree with you pulling up Madrid stats. The first tournament always has an unclear meta. The second has a mostly developed meta. The third has the fully grown meta but also teams trying to counter the meta.(In general) It's why I heavily prefer using Tournament Two for any general claims about that year.

The exact same thing I said is still true even if we use your methodology.
Tokyo - 2 double duelist comps (Note: EG basically ran triple duelist on Bind) in a 3 game series
Shanghai - 1 double duelist comp in a 5 game series

R1-> R12 (not putting it all for readability)

So one of your big premises for why 2024 is more aggressive is by looking at the finals of Shanghai vs Tokyo, and comparing how many time they went aggro without masking it. One big problem with this analysis is that this aggressiveness is part of GEN.G's specific gameplan for for how TH plays split, where Benjy is usually isolated and trusted to 'get his' as a site anchor (with a player like benjy thats usually a good bet), but GENG realized this and realized they could overwhelm him by pushing the pace (Raze scatter nade to break his trips, double satchel and dunk on him). It's basically rinse and repeat of this specific strat that led to that difference in that stat. And don't take my word for it, take Sliggy's, from his analysis :
https://youtu.be/N-KeWu482yw?si=Tn2j39p4xzDDns9x&t=1100

At least some of your analysis (I'll be honest, I didn't go through everything) is a bit shaky/misleading too, for example:

R10 GENG vs TH, you say they (TH) don't take control of B-Main, but they literally did take control of B main. They start the round by instantly burning a (non-replenishing) Skye flash and One-waying the entrance (which missed lmao). The flash hits nothing, and since in their eyes they have B-main control - Boo's sitting behind a smoke at the entrance - they go and rotate the other players to A where GenG made alot of noise. Boo ends up losing a duel to Meteor and GENG gets a free site plant.

R11 GENG vs TH Then, the next round, they start by doing the exact same thing, one-waying and skye-flashing B main (the skye flash is a few secs delayed from the round before, but same thing basically). Even though this is the same thing, only now do you call it aggression. Then, the same thing happens, they send players to rotate A after hearing nothing. Instead of fighting back for that space, GENG just hits A, runs into a viper ult and site stack, and loses. The irony is that though you attribute this round to aggression from TH, they did the same thing as last round, but objectively were less aggressive - Boo straight up leaves B main and backs up to site to jiggle spot, giving up B main for free unlike the round directly prior! In some sense GENG were less aggressive as well, because if they fought back for that space or made their presence known instead of just instantly leaving, it's plausible it would have pulled rotates and their site hit would have worked better.

On top of that, you stated you wouldn't include ecos, yet you included R11 (a mastercard thrifty), because it purportedly helped your case about the importance of aggressiveness in 2024 (even though it was less aggressive from both sides in fighting for B main compared to the last round, in which you ignored entirely that they fought for B main), but excluded R9, where the aggression gets punished, this time in mid.

So in summary, in the span of three rounds (R9-R11) you

• Selectively ignore an eco that don't help you point, but include the one that does (R9, R11)
• Ignore an example of aggression when it didn't work (R10)
• Tout an example of an objectively less aggressive version of an identical play as a round won by aggression (R10, R11)

This is not even to mention the nuance of the entire analysis, such as GenG's specific strat to punish benjy.

I don't want to spend the time to write (and you prob don't want to read) a bajillion lines going through every detail of fakes, reclears, aggression, of two games in an entire two year period (look at the wall of text it takes to just break down 3 rounds on just one topic). Let's get back to the big picture, which you summarize in the last lines:

The Meta Change IS what made FNC not good this year. If FNC played the same way they did in 2023 in 2024, they would've been crushed. Why do you think FNC did so bad this year? Sure, you can argue Champs, but 2024 does not apply

If I understand correctly, you're arguing that because the 2023 meta is different from the 2024, meta, comparing performances from the latter and backpropogating them as a judge of strength isn't appropriate. But the problem is, as you allude to, Champs did happen. We saw that PRX at full strength outperformed Fnatic - in the meta that you say favors them. In fact, the only data we have from the 2023 meta of PRX vs FNC's true level (no asterisks) is PRX performing better, they got 2nd, FNC got 4th.

And if you think we can't backpropogate Madrid and Shanghai as further (and yes, weaker, but its still something) evidence because the meta change harms Fnatic, why can't we raise the same objection about how it harmed PRX? if anything the meta change was much more harmful to PRX, we saw them fall off a cliff over the course of 2024, they weren't even a top 2 pacific team by the end, and jingg in particular got basically his career ruined by the changes to skye and raze. If the 2024 meta hurt Fnatic, it almost certainly hurt PRX more, so the trend of PRX being better with something is bolstered by the meta changing and them still being better during those events, let alone their case for how they would've done at Tokyo in the 2023 meta.

man put an allat alert on a 5 sentence post

tiktok has done irreversible damage to the world's youth

I'll get to 113 within 3 days, promise (inshallah)
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Eh. It depends. Although a good chamber COULD be really strong, PRX also showed that they could easily beat chamber when needed.

Easily is a bit of a stretch

f0rsakeN was a perfectly respectable chamber

I agree, he definitely wasn't bad, but when you think of the top chambers you think of Yay, Ardiss, Cryo, Derke, and even Laz before thinking of Forsaken

Huh? I've been trying to explain that FNC >> PRX due to playstyle. PRX >> most of EMEA is fair, but PRX vs FNC isn't the same, especially during 2023, as most of EMEA that year was complete shit

Yes but your reasoning for why FNC >>> PRX playstyle was circular (see below). In their only previous encounter PRX won, and PRX has generally done well against european teams across multiple years, not just 2023.

I think FNC is a really bad matchup for PRX and FNC basically always wins, especially during 2023

So not only was your argument for this circular, but we've gone full circle and started at the beginning.

Your evidence for why FNC would beat full-strength PRX at Tokyo due to matchup/style advantage was solely based on Tokyo. That is circular reasoning (or at least super close).

I hate that people call cgrs a streamer when talking about him. It's true that he used to stream. But he quickly learned during Tokyo and managed to become a perfectly respectable player during Tokyo. He wasn't a complete liability or anything, he was just slightly worse than average.

Well, he was basically a streamer until that point. He wasn't even in challengers, despite trying. And even though he (miraculously) exceeded what you could've reasonably expected from him, he was still bottom 5 statistically for the whole tournament.

'Fnatic was never considered the best in the world prior to franchising' Means absolutely nothing. It's true, but what people think is going to happen has no real effect on what will happen

That line is a quick summary from the original post('Fnatic was never great') of pre-franchising Fnatic. Basically just says Fnatic was never great (#1 in the world) at any point pre-franchising. Nobody really argues that anyways, which is why the bulk of it focuses on franchising.

'Lock In was mickey mouse for multiple clear reasons' Not going to debate this too much, but you have to keep in mind FNC got first and would've been top two even with said asterisks in both Tokyo and Lock//In

Yeah and? Doesn't matter if LOUD, NAVI, NRG, DRX or even C9 won it. It's mickey mouse regardless, and therefore I don't take any result from it seriously.

'EG and PRX obviously weren't at full strength at tokyo' Fair, but FNC is always >> PRX imo even at full strength.

and we've come full circle

'EG and PRX obviously weren't at full strength at tokyo' Again, even if EG were better and would've won, FNC still gets 2nd

2nd is good, but not enough to be great. Winning matters. The only reason Mako isn't the unquestionable goat controller is because he couldn't win.

Lock//In - 2nd (LOUD wins)

Lock-in doesn't matter regardless

Tokyo - 2nd (EG wins)

Could even be 3rd, behind PRX and EG

Champions - 3rd (EG and LOUD would beat FNC)

You know we actually know what happened at champs without hypotheticals, right? All teams were full strength, they got 4th.

FNC are clearly a top team of 2023

True, but they were never great. Gotta definitively prove you're the best, like others before and after you (SEN, GMB, LOUD, EG, etc) to be in that convo

1. SEN - Zekken, Johnqt, and N4rrate are proven monsters, Bang is an experienced, elite smokes player (ask PRX), and Zellsis is a very good flex (fully deserved that trophy)
2. G2 - They replaced their biggest problem with a world champion. No real weak links
   -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. NRG - They have the greatest midrounder of all time, a very good smokes player in S0m, a world champ, and picked up arguably the two best t2 players in the world
4. Lev - allegedly its gonna be Kingg (a beast), C0m + Demon1 (world champs), Tex (beast) and Nismo?. I like it alot. All of them are really good players.
5. Loud - (pancada, tuyz, cauanzin, vinny, sato) I think this roster is being slept on
6. 100T - (-bang + zander) Could be higher depending on how asuna plays, but for some reason I doubt he'll repeat that performance. He'll have to prove it to convince me.
7. KRU - Hard to tell exactly, but they won't be too good or too bad (until its time to qual for champs)
   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   8/9. 2G - They're good, but welcome to the big leagues
   8/9. C9 - I like the moves they made, but Xeppa really gotta go. If they get a good replacement for him I could even see them around 4-5th.
   -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   10 Furia - Decent players bad team
   11 MIBR - MIBR
   -------------------------------------------------
   ??????. EG

This is really cool but some of the numbers for the simulator are really off

Like really off

For example the Fnatic 23' team: Derke has a 92 rating vs Leo's 80 and Alfajer's 82, his aim stat (94) is also higher than Alfajer's (87)

Jawgemo 23' is 69/69 Overall Rating/Aim vs boaster's 62/64

In fact, all of 23' NRG except FNS is higher rated than Jawgemo

Zander

Higher Floor than both, already has experience playing with john

I distinctly remember it to this day. It was lotus and he was like 'Who is this skye this guys a god' and when chat told him its xeppaa he's like 'oh yeah that makes sense, xeppaa is the best player in the world in games that don't matter'

"Xeppaa is the best player in the world in games that don't matter" - FNS, in a ranked game a long time ago...

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Americas Kickoff Group Stage : https://www.vlr.gg/event/stats/1923/champions-tour-2024-americas-kickoff?exclude=23029.23030.23818&min_rounds=0&agent=all - 1.03 Rating

Americas Stage 1: https://www.vlr.gg/event/stats/2004/champions-tour-2024-americas-stage-1 - 0.99 Rating

Amercias Stage 2: https://www.vlr.gg/event/stats/2095/champions-tour-2024-americas-stage-2 - 0.90 Rating

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Red Bull NA Play-Ins: https://www.vlr.gg/event/stats/2171/red-bull-home-ground-5?exclude=26767.26768.26769&min_rounds=0&agent=all - 1.32 Rating (#1)

Karon Primmie N4rrate are all rare talents that are exceptions to the rule

don't know where this narrative came from

It came from the mouths of actual pros who play the game at the highest level

As probably the #1 Neon hater on this site (credentials), Chamber was more broken.

But as other's have said, neon has an 'annoying' factor which makes it feel more AIDS to play against imo.