TMV still doesnt understand...

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it is hard to believe in their ability to understand the game due to things like this. They kinda have to be handheld into making the right decisions with 10 steps of trial and error to get there

#76

IncrediblyBasedCommenter

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TMV slander I'm going all in

lissAluvr

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yeah make skye flash shoot

#22

MrBlooBloom

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replace Skye with Mei Mei so you can watch through the bird's eyes and groom your little brother

#28

trentglazer

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ayo???????????

#73

ZBK_

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make it so that when it flashes you, you are silenced xd

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nah agent pick rates do matter the most but what also matters arguably more is the ranked initiator pick rate. People don't want to play initiator when it has no room for error and you're the first guy to get flamed when your duelist ints.

If we're balancing for fun we've gotta prioritize most of the playerbase and not some whiners on twitter

#10

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Also he doesn't get this in the video. The issue is overall initiator pick rate not individual initiator pick rates. When there are a non-insignificant number of ascendant+ games where nobody will even fill initiator let alone be a dedicated player of the role you have a problem regardless of whether that fill is always Soba or Foid

He is giving ranked players too much credit by assuming they will feel the need to lock initiator

#39

midzera

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The issue with the "no-initiators-in-ranked" definitely gets dragged by the fact that people just want agents who can self-sufficiently take fights: Reyna, Jett, Neon, Chamber, Clove, Omen. Skye can fit in there too, but people don't like the idea of using utility that could punish them hard if they make a mistake with it (team-flashing or not properly flashing enemies). Sova and Fade would still be a go-to option given that their utility practically gives wallhacks to know how many people are in a location and where they specifically are

When it comes to agent parity, I think getting close is a good direction, but achieving perfect parity would be nonsensical. It is extremely evident that there is a heavily imbalanced agent selection and that it is a call for change. I think buffing the flash initiators would be the first plan of action. The sentinel class could also have some buffs, especially for agents like Veto who are highly promising but have a relatively weak kit.

I would love to see the return of more utility, but Riot made a clear point 2 years ago about reducing utility overload because you get clips like when Caedrel tuned into a match and was overstimulated and memeing how a lot of things are happening, but it's difficult to follow for newcomers. There should be a slight increase in utility/decrease in utility cooldown time. The meta should be switched up since we have had double duelist for a solid 2 years now.

#71

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We'll never get my wish of reworking all the stupid ranked agents out of the game so the least rito can do is stop pretending to care and release a braindead fill initiator. Not happening after they thought a smoke gimmick was too deep for miks, they think ranked players are both totally incompetent when it comes to util but keep also assuming they have the brains to understand game fundamentals when they keep feeding them agents that let them not learn them (and honestly become actively averse in some cases)

Chetin

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The problem is that you can't define a "FUN meta" bcs it is a subjective value, in the eyes of Tenz this meta is amazing and he loves the game the way it is with almost no util and so does many other people. the point TMV makes is that if you remove scans in favour of other agents the meta will change to another direction which you may or may not like

OldIGN

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What was TMV's take? Did he say that buffing other init's wouldnt matter because sova & fade would still get picked?

Chetin

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basically, he uses brawk as an example bcs even if gekko was good and viable he would still choose Sova any day of the week

OldIGN

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ok, but isnt gekko like 50/50 recon/support and sova is like 80/20. in this meta and alot of different metas youd rather have more recon than support no?

#11

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i dont think its a problem the same way AD carries in botlane isnt a problem in league of legends. Have they become a staple that is simply an integral part of any comp/draft? Sure. Is their presence a negative for the game experience? On the contrary, they make the game actively better. It is a part of the games identity at its core and necessary to make it function in an enjoyable way. So we shouldnt want Scans like AD carries to be crowded out the game simply for the sake of parity

#15

Chetin

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idk shit about league so I don't really get your point. I think rito should just pull an OW and create a support and recon class to stop this mess

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he says the most important thing is having a high parity in agent pickrate (And you will reach that first and foremost by nerfing the Scans). Which, sure, isnt a bad thing. But the fact that he is arguing for it to be at this level of overall util in the game is terrible. I'm perfectly fine with higher parity but please god do it with everybody (except duelists) having more util than they currently do.

#12

OldIGN

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so his point is that initiator players should be playing different initiators instead of just 1 or 2 for the rest of their career?

#17

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I kinda have to repeat myself here. His valid desire of comp diversity is completely neglecting the overarching way the meta functions. We could have perfect parity if we removed every piece of util/every ability from the game. That would however makes the game completely uninteresting and worthless. So his tunnel vision on only agent pickrates is missing the most crucial aspect of what makes Valorant fun to watch and play.

#13

kevxns

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jesus yall are fast 💀

#14

Orphan_prx

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his take is fine, his idea of removing the cooldown is bad

#16

Pomshies

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TMV is to Riot what Goebbels was to the nazis

#18

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okay bruh 💀

#19

Orphan_prx

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also your point about contacting being borning

this is what people wanted during tejo being strong everyone bitched and complained about too much util, so they nerfed ultil and now people are bitching and complaining about less util

also how are pickrates not the best way to show how much an agent is played

#20

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as soon as tejjo got nerfed the meta was fine. He was just so busted that he singlehandedly broke the meta. Especially with postplant spam.

Did you consider the fact there might be an inbetween instead of being so pissy? Like between 0 abilities and everybody getting 3 raze ults per round?

also how are pickrates not the best way to show how much an agent is played

i never claimed otherwise

#23

Anguibok

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Peopel where dumb, they where bitching on an agent with 49% WR that was really overated , but really did fit do some precise teams (If you are G2 or ZeranceMint you shouldn't be allowed to play Tejo). We will always have heavy aim team, can we are allowed to have heavy macro team too please ? Can we have diversity in this game ?

#25

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tbf pickrate would have skyrocketed if they didnt nuke him. A lot of people were massively wrong about him and adapted way too late.

Also that fact that his gameplay was so toxic made his pickrate 10 times as much of a problem as omen or viper pickrate

#27

Anguibok

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I meant WR, this agent was absolute trash for team that rely on aim, the WR is so low and not everyone isnt G2

#36

Xool_233

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Right after the Tejo nerf the meta was really good. Then came the TenZ patch...

#24

Anguibok

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I did answer that on his video :

You need active info in Val, this is really important, it's almost as important as smokes. Gives no refillable smokes for every smokes, and you will have 2 smokers on any team. If you nerf Sova and Fade CD, they are a chance that you need 2 reveals per team (Skye and Tejo also count, drone and wolf are great info but the problem is they are not refill abilities). And if team sticks to 1 reveal, say hello to the most boring meta ever : never rotate, only bus at 5 everytime and hope we survive.

I'm sorry TMV but I have to agree with the people here, if you want diversity, give Tejo and Skye a refillable drone and wolf, this is the only way to not having 100% Sova-Fade (Or make the Swamp meta come back). Rework Breach to give him any reveal spell. An initiator need active info, the same way a controller need a smoke. (That's why Breach was always BAD)

#26

gold2peak

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You mean the obnoxious bum who cries about how bad every single team is for 90% of the time is clueless?

#29

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i think your commited to not hearing him - other info exists in the game, he just doesnt want RECON ini to be a staple of comps, he wants skye and gecko to be viable INSTEAD of recon, not in conjunction with recon, obviously info is needed in the game, but fade and sova are not the only agents that give info, like, i agree the no cooldown take is dumb, but he actively says he wants all the other inis buffed, and that his only disconnect is he doesnt think every comp should have either fade or sova, his nerf video was specifically about what they should do in the NEXT update, not the direction he wants the game to go overall, feels like everyone actually agrees and we are just arguing over nothing

#30

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Gekko info doesn’t tell you anything and all his util is easy to shoot, The problem is that there are only 2 recon agents and fade was added in 2022 we should have 4 by now but the company is just dumb

#31

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again, your point here is that recon is a defined role, tmvs point is riot obviously doesnt think so, and the game doesnt actually need a defined recon role, gecko should absolutely be buffed, but you would need to make him broken to start seeing him instead of sova fade without nerfing sova fade because people dont switch until its a big difference

#33

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Okay how does fucking the recon agents fix the contact meta, hes more concerned with the pickrates instead of gameplay lmao do you think people are watching for agent variety, Loud and vitality played entirely different comps and the game was still boring to watch

#35

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i mean, his changes were in context of literally every other buff and nerf he had in that video, not individually, do you think a gecko meta is going to be contacty? fuck no, its an agent with a 10 second util cooldown, obviously JUST nerfing sova and fade would be shit, but thats not what he was saying

#37

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Okay sure, but why doesn’t he share this opinion with omen? When omen and sova and fade are in the same spot, they aren’t OP but the rest of the class is shit buff the rest of the class first and if they still dominate then maybe I can agree with him

#38

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i mean he had omen in the monitor category and astra in buff, i assume his reasoning is just, smokes players still play other smokes agents, like we had an astra meta, smokes players would not be uncomfy going back to astra if astra becomes meta, brim still gets play on brim maps, hell, we have even seen harbor get picked up a decent amount on harbor maps, the thing with recon players is most of them have just played recon since the start of the game and nothing else, to make a recon player switch to playing something else you have to make recon kinda shit cause their agent mastery in recon is 10x their mastery in anything else, whereas most smokes players play brim and viper and omen and played in the astra meta, but again, he still said buff astra and watch to see if omen needs a nerf, he just thought it was less of an issue than recon

#40

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You had to play Skye in 2023,a lot of people played gekko in 2024 and Tejo/Breach were more played at Bangkok idk I feel like it’s obvious that when other initiators are good people will play them

#41

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i would argue gekko and skye were played WITH fade sova more often than alone, gecko especially, which means its actually the flex players playing them and tejo was busted busted, which, yea i said in another comment somewhere that the options are either make other inis busted or kill recons

#46

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i have 0 issue with double ini. Best meta in the game.

continue thread →

#32

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Okay if you want more parity then do this:

but he actively says he wants all the other inis buffed,

but dont nerf anybody.

Him wanting nerfs is absolutely a clear disagreement.

#34

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again, i agree generally, his point is moreso, we know pro players dont switch until the difference is massive, he even said in the comments of that video he would be fine with them getting cooldowns back at a later date, he just thinks the easiest way to force people to switch without making broken agents is kill the agents that are comfortable for people so they learn and gain agent mastery on the other agents, then when you buff sova fade back, you have someone with 200 gecko games and 300 sova 300 fade games, instead of someone with 50 gecko games and 300 sova and 300 fade games, to make the sova fade player pick gecko you need to make gecko busted, or sova fade shit

#44

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i personally wouldnt want to endure this transition period after such a dogshit meta for a whole year. Also riot doesnt really revert changes that quickly. Would take them a year to shift it back

#48

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i mean, sure, but the entire point of his video is what he would do if he was making the patch, so like, assumedly in that world he wouldnt take a year to shift it back

#49

TentacleThing

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The fact that the only way to get players to play different agents is to kill off the ones they were playing is bad game design and isn't healthy for the valorant ecosystem.

#51

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i mean, to some extent this will always be an issue in every game with characters ever, comfort is relevent, if you want to reward agent mastery you end up in a situation where players play the things they are good at, if neon is like 5% better than jett, but a player has 10x the games on jett, then the player will play jett and probably do better, you could argue the player should just get better at neon, and in the new system with more games, this is likely to happen more, but overall people arent going to commit time to learning a new agent if they have 50 other things to work on as a team, and the overall difference is actually quite small, so you either make the difference larger, or you accept that actually, people playing to their comfort is better than the meta being so overpowering everyone plays the same comps, personally, i think its cool when teams play different comps because they have players that are comfortable on different agents, its more interesting personally.

#42

ulferine

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We are so obsessed with tenz being riot simp that we forgot tmv is another dictator, he solo handedly nuked viper from existance and now is going for more nerfs to agents

#43

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if tmv was a dictator breach would have been reworked 3 years ago

#45

ulferine

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Because breach wasnt the problem of the game while he convinced riot that viper was an actual problem(was right tho)

#63

rafter

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Viper deserved it. So does Omen but TMV doesn’t go as hard on that boring piece of shit for some reason. But that doesn’t make him retroactively incorrect about Viper, who is also a boring piece of shit.

#77

IncrediblyBasedCommenter

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Viper needed even a bigger nuke, don't lie to urself

#79

ulferine

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Wall used once
Orb used once
Ult radius half
Thats the prefect nerf for you?

#50

Nigellomeister

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i was with you then he made the video, and im convinced that his take is not far to the good direction.
his point is still valid with the dry contact problem, he just doesn't want recon to be a staple on every map., buff the other init so they can more reliably counter the op/judge/etc.

i miss when gekko kayo sen comp on sunset was a thing, i miss when kayo breach optic comp on fracture was a thing, people want double init to be sova/fade + 2nd init, so boring. same problem with omen.

though, no cooldown would be rough, i think 60s/70s cooldown is good, 2 max usage if a round is stretched

#52

jixkk

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i do kinda get it the recon agents should be nerfed enough were other options can be worked around and not be objectively worse then the recon variant/make non recon comps worth running and learning

him being so fixated on agent pick rates kinda ruins his takes if they are good or not some agents are just better for pro play when they have high pick rates/are good omen,yoru,skye flexible agents that enable different comp(pseudo-entry 2nd flashes and a solo inti that has info and flashes+drone) when lurk agents are usable viper,cypher,astra(lurk agents in general) raze,hush probably,neon(...) probably (high mastery entry agents)

i would say one of them is recon but maybe a no hard info meta would be interesting but i feel like it would make the already existing contact/walk around glitch meta much worse and people are already really sick of it

that being said removing the of recons should never be the way to do it buff the other intis to see how big of a nerf recon would need for them to be good or not maybe 2 round would be actually enough of a nerf with a buff to the other agents

#53

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i do kinda get it the recon agents should be nerfed enough were other options can be worked around and not be objectively worse then the recon variant/make non recon comps worth running and learning

No. I will repeat myself 100 times. Dont nerf recon. Buff the others

#54

jixkk

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thats just recon + 2nd inti the others should buffed and after that recon should be nerfed (slightly) just enough to make running a solo skye/gekko/tejo maybe worth it or a option at least

should recon not have a cd tho fuck no

#56

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NO.

Just buff the others HARD. Nerfing recon is WRONG.

#60

jixkk

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thats just double inti again i get it tho if we nerf recon we might lowk get a much worse contact/walk around glitch meta maybe worse then this one so fairs which i said above

i mean regardless of recon we should lowk just buff all the non recon inti's double inti is better then nothing and walk around glitch sage chamber ig

this is all fixed if they revert the champs patch or if they we start asking for buffs instead of wanting everything to be nerfed all the time cause its all broken apparently

#55

Raisor

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I don’t understand ur argument, you say pick rate isn’t the metric to chase and then all of your suggestions for making an enjoyable meta is… to even out pick rate?

More diversity among scans, revive flash ini, buff kj so there is more choice among senti class

Like all of these things are just pick rate, you’re just choosing to buff a little more than tmv is?

#57

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he wants recon nerfs. I REJECT recon nerfs completely. It lessens their ability to impact the meta in a way i find beneficial. Others need to be brought UP to the recons level. The recons shouldnt be brought DOWN. Valorant need MORE util than it has now. The stronger roles/agents need to be left alone. The weaker ones lifted UP significantly to close the gap. Both can bring parity but at very different elevation levels in terms of absolute util in the game.

That is a HUGE difference in the way the game is being played

#58

J7N

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Congo1 do you think you could beat TMV in a boxing match?

#59

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Oh 100000% per cent. But i cannot touch tory aristocrat or i will get the whip

#61

Janoo

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I mean his solution is radical but deeply he has a point. Recon has been the superior Initiator sub class since Valorant' competitive inception.
Look at 2026, Flash Initiators are so shit that the main agents to have a flash this year were Yoru and Phoenix XD

#62

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Okay... then buff flash inis hard? Recons should be lightly buffed too tbh but. The gap between flash inis and recons should simply be closed by flash ini buffs being much bigger. Could give slight buffs to sentis too. Duelists need to lose relative strenght with how dominant they are

#64

lejargon

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I got something very important to say about this thread

Allat

#65

termtermtermterm

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"high school teacher breaks down after seeing students can't read"

#66

lejargon

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high school teacher is so proud to see his student is reading what's worth reading

#67

Castawaytwizz

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https://i.ibb.co/sd3YP1N6/image-1793047470487.png side note i find this image too funny

#68

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i hope he aint the kinda guy to not take this well...

#69

Cheezifeet

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Recon should be nerfed. Maybe not how tmv suggested but it should receive a nerf and I know that change alone will probably not do anything but if the we want a different and better meta recon has to be nerfed as a starting point.

#70