Hot take: just rework Harbor's ultimate

#1

eStos

Last time I made a post about this, it was just a joke, but if I'm being serious:

Just because people don't know how to play Harbor doesn't mean he needs a rework. How about we revert the Viper orb change and let her pick it up again after throwing it?

Harbor's ultimate is useless because it's easily avoidable. My solution is: make it work like a Breach ult - stun everyone in the area after a short period for like, 2 seconds, then just slow down (just movement) everyone inside it for 8 seconds. This would make people actually scared of his ultimate, and would make it almost impossible to dodge (as hard as a Breach ultimate). Is this too OP?

Reworking any other abilities defeats the purpose of the agent.

#2

Slingz_val

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Harbor needs a rework and there is literally no argument his abilities are just shit which is a game design problem there is no way he can be fixed just by buffs and yes people don't know how to play him but that doesn't make him any better or smth he is the Worst agent pretty much and honestly his ULT is his best util pretty much after his High Tide ability

#4

cloudberry

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No, he's right, the ultimate is his worst ability. His two best abilities are High Tide and Cove in some order, and the Cascade is one of the most unique combo abilities in the entire game

#5

Slingz_val

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I disagree like everyone has opinion so I get it but his Cove is pretty useless easily breakable doesn't block util but it's still fine util his cascade defeats the purpose it can be spammed easily and okay it gives you space but the slow is too bad and it doesn't really do much for it to be respected by the oponents.

Why I think his ult is good? It gives information about enemies sometimes even stun the whole point is to keep them moving so they can't shoot back...the best part is the range and combo util you can throw with it

I like the idea of his wall making him different from Viper but his slow is again just too bad maybe a slow buff would make it much better also the wall or any other ability shouldn't sloe teammates honestly

The problem is pretty much Harbor has categorically only smokes and nothing else for stall or site takes just block sightlines which is decent also he needs a ability which does one of the two

#7

cloudberry

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This comment tells me you don't really understand how Harbor works

The cove is very breakable, yes, but the entire point of it is to give you cover to play around momentarily. If you're using it solely to plant/defuse then it's useless, but if you or a teammate are in a bad spot then the cove can protect them better than almost any ability in the game

The entire point of the cascade is to take space. Yes, you can spam it... it's a smoke, not a shield. The entire point of it is for you and your teammates to be able to take space behind it and use it to section off areas. Pros teams have also used it to combo a ton of abilities... Skye flashing through a cascade was super popular in 2023; I've seen a couple teams use the cascade to get an op posted up on an angle; recently in Champs, NRG were droning behind cascades, as well as putting up Vyse flashes behind cascades

#11

Slingz_val

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Cove is decent util I said also Cascade his util are decent but not good enough for him to make him viable that's what I'm saying and he needs proper buffs to make them better

#6

eStos

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you said:

there is literally no argument his abilities are just shit

but you didn't give me an argument here. why do you think his abilities are shit?

#10

Slingz_val

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High Tide: Wall is decent the problem is slow is too bad it has to be buffed the Viper wall is respected because of the decay but Harbor doesn't have much for him going in here also it's really clunky okay I am not saying Harbor has to be just like Viper, but the problem is you have to play retake with his wall quite alot plus it forces you to play in locations from which you can make proper walls for your teammates which is really clunky

Cascade: BAD util imo can be spammed slow is too bad again most of the people in high Elon doesn't even respect his cascade util good for scaling up with teammates so that's a plus point also good for taking space but is mid ability imo

Cove: decent util but easily breakable doesn't stop util most of the time it gets easily broken only plus point is it gets you easy plant and defuse it should act like a proper smoke after it's broken but that's it

Reckoning: Easily avoidable goof part is that it can somewhat give info and stuns and keep them moving so they don't shoot back

His util has no synergy with each other and pretty weak overall and clunky asf that's all I say you gotta rework one of his util mostly cascade I think

As per rumours his cascade is becoming his ult with more power obv and he is getting some other util which can help initiate in sites so that's pretty good I will say will.make him more stronger and Controller- Initiator hybrid like

#26

eStos

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High Tide: slow more (okay), makes Harbor play safe (that's just how he's supposed to play, read #12 where I explain how a throwable debuff would defeat the purpose of the agent.)

Cascade: you shouldn't be using it as your primary smoke, because as you said, it IS spammable. Cascade's purpose is to waste the enemy's time or cover space your High Tide (the real smoke) didn't cover.

Cove: read #16 where I explain why I think it shouldn't last too much after it's destroyed

Reckoning: it's really ass, that's why I think it should be reworked

#3

cloudberry

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The ultimate does NOT make or break an agent. You can have a horrible ultimate and still be an S tier agent. You can also be Phoenix

#12

eStos

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Harbor would be good enough if they did something like this to his ultimate. They could also turn his Cascade into a Brimstone smoke type ability, you select an area and it goes up. Other than that, I think it's more of a Valorant issue, Harbor doesn't have any debuff or damage abilities like other controllers and that's what makes people think he's bad (ultimate doesn't count because as I said, easily avoidable). We used to see him in pro play a lot when he was first released, the meta just favors controllers with debuff abilities but it doesn't necessarily mean he's bad (ik you know that).

That being said, they're gonna make Harbor even worse if they do that water grenade shit. We DO NOT want Harbor throwing stuff when he's supposed to stay back and split the map with his abilities. Giving Harbor a throwable (debuff) grenade would encourage Harbor players to be more agressive, which defeats the purpose of the agent imo.

#13

Slingz_val

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That's what I also said also throwable grenade is not confirmed

#14

SENfns

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Slow is a debuff and his walls do that

#15

Slingz_val

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It's literally non existent slow tbh his debuff is hella weak

#17

SENfns

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i mena i guess so its only a 30% slow, its noticeable in some parts of abyss if yoiu try to jump you'll fall and die at danger tho
id say if they upped it to 40% it might be a bit better
(if it was 50% then sage's slow orbs get powercrept)

#20

Slingz_val

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The duration should be more once u touch wall you should be slowed for like 1.5 secs rather than just half a second 30% slow is fine tbh

#24

cloudberry

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I've tested this multiple times, if you're not lazy about it you will never die in that scenario

#25

SENfns

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you die with gun out no?
im sure you can make it with a knife but who going thru a smoke with knife out

#27

cloudberry

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I haven't tested with gun actually, I'll try that later

#28

SENfns

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SHOULD kill you IF the harbor wall is placed correctly

#19

eStos

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I'm talking about REAL debuffs lol

#23

cloudberry

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I agree that his ultimate should be improved, but idk if I'd do it the way you did it. Kinda impossible to tell without playtesting tbh

I am COMPLETELY against that cascade idea. Half the value of cascade is the fact that it moves forward, and putting cascades down via map just makes them even clunkier. What would you even use a cascade for at that point other than as a significantly worse smoke?

Harbor is not the kind of agent to just sit back and throw util. I wouldn't necessarily call him aggressive but he's definitely very proactive

#29

eStos

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as Slingz_val said (#10), Cascade is spammable, so the idea of it moving forward is just an imaginary way of making teammates think you're safe, while also making it go to it's intended location at a slower pace. do you use Cascade to take space, considering you can still get shot and both sides of the wall are still completely unprotected?

definitely very proactive

I kind of disagree. You can't run around spinning your wall. A Brimstone/Omen can smoke while moving. Harbor is supposed to be at a safe spot when smoking in most situations.

#8

SENfns

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How about we revert the Viper orb change and let her pick it up again after throwing it?

this will make harbor's low pickrate drop even further

#18

eStos

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I forgor 💀

I just really like Viper and I wish she didn't get nerfed that much

but you can always fix Viper AND Harbor at the same time!

#21

SENfns

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i think they should go for a value in between the old decay and the current decay of her walls/orb
it feels too low now
and it felt too high before

#22

Slingz_val

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20 is decent imo

#9

ThePopTartt

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Harbor wall shouldn't slow teammates down going thru, that was always my take

I think that when the shield on the cove breaks, it shouldnt drop either.

#16

eStos

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oh, that's a really good one. I agree with you!

idk about the cove tho, it would give him too much defusing power. You'd have to spray the cove and then spray the smoke, it would basically give people a free half-defuse imo

#30

ThePopTartt

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they could do less shield health then, I'm against playing off site for post plant so I would prefer it

#31

Pedri_isTheGoat

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Bruh what, everybody know that cascade & tidewall are worst harbor skill, his ultimate is okay nobody complain about it

#32

eStos

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that's definitely an opinion

#33

Pedri_isTheGoat

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I know but it make it worse

#34

Yistyy

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I get what you're saying, but the reason he isnt played is not because of his ult. He has other quirks that need to be resolved before that

#38

eStos

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how would YOU fix him?

#39

Yistyy

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You should be able to tilt his cascades like a sage wall. And you should be able to control the start point for his high tide.

#42

cloudberry

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Tilt his cascades how?

#44

Yistyy

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like using alt fire/right click you should be able to rotate it around kinda like a sage wall. and then releasing right click sends it out. you get what im saying? or do you think this could be implemented differently then what im suggesting. cuz back when i was playing harbor i wished it was easier to cascade at an angle

#45

cloudberry

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Am I misunderstanding you or could you not accomplish basically the same thing by turning around

#46

Yistyy

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no cuz if i want to send a cascade forward but i want it to be 90 degrees it's impossible. for example say im in a post plant scenario, im positioned logs on c site haven and my teammate asks for a smoke for the garage choke. what im suggesting allows me to smoke it off at a 90 degree angle instead of the cascade being perpendicular to the choke.

#47

cloudberry

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I get what you mean

That would look silly as hell to deploy though I'm not gonna lie

#35

temi

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My pov on Harbor is that compared to every other controller when Harbor uses any ability u know pretty much where they are… and in pro play that’s free info that can be easily planned around… the most similar agent archetype he has to fight is viper and she’s leagues above him

Obviously omen has paranoia n tp but the trade off for that info for omen is massive compared to what u gain from harbor’s walls… the slow isn’t powerful enough to stop people from disrespecting the wall n to throw some walls u have to curve them randomly and non intuitively

#36

eStos

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I've seen some people say it's not intuitive. How is it not intuitive when you just have to look at the map to see where it's going?

#41

temi

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why would any1 want to that compared to
1 viper - pre round work n ur done
2 clove brim - ipad
3 omen astra - extra dimensional but star placing and a 3d map is easier

if the primary wall was an ipad not u going to a certain location before u can use that ability then its way more difficult...
as a casual theres 0 reason to play harbor

#43

cloudberry

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The wall is intuitive once you have enough playtime on Harbor, but aside from that I agree with what you're saying

#37

natalie

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The ultimate is shit, but honestly imo the problem is that:
1 - the stun effect is just awful in and of itself and most of the time stuns are just cosmetic
2 - it really should only cost six, seven ult points is too much
3 - it doesn't last long enough to make a large difference, it's basically a worse version of a Vyse ult when used in that way
4 - it's hard to actually gain info since the circles are kinda awkward to see and usually enemies are behind boxes or cover so you can't even see if it hits in general

potential fixes:
make it cost six, seven too much
make it last a little longer
make enemies or at least the circles of where it hits show on the minimap

#40

gobbyval

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if you can throw his primary wall from anywhere (drawing an ipad like clove brim etc) he instantly becomes good. but removing the cascades for a more useful ability is helpful too