Waylay and Iso are what id call setup dueliste

Definition: A duelist that can fight for themselves but has abilities that can be used with good coordination to set up a more favourable encounter for another player (preferably another duelist, but can be almost anyone with a movement ability to make a good entry).
And if they wished to be entry they require a lot more support to actually pull it off

Now the explanation
Waylay is all but self explanatory if you look at the way drx ran yoru waylay with hyunmin setting up flashback for kills by saturate double dash refract combo. And as is seen by both the Fnatic abyss comp and the mibr/nrg corrode comp of 2025, a solo waylay, requires a lot more support to actually perform the duelist role with both a flash initiator and a recon initiator

Iso, is less obvious. But I'll try to explain. Iso's shield, is very self sufficient, yes i agree. But the undercut, is very hard to capitalize off of yourself unless you have specific positions, like if i want a good undercut, im sending it back site where site anchors are, problem is iso is not a movement duelist and cannot run fast enough to effectively capitalize. However. If i say threw in a neon who decided to slide in right as im sending out my undercut, with a contingency wall in front of her to prevent counter spam... Now all of a sudden that undercut gets massive value.

In conclusion. While Waylay and Iso are duelists. Their abilities are much more suited to setting up another player with better movement abilities than themselves.
Any arguments please have reasoning

EDIT- NOTE: WAYLAY AND ISO ARE STILL DUELISTS and can still do effective entires. They're not comparable to an omen or kayo entry. Just that within their role they are (relatively) worse at entry than their competitors.

i think iso is just a fragging duelist
if you use iso you only do it with expectations of that player dropping hiroshimas on the enemy team
he can probably be used for setup too but i think thats just a side benefit

allat

if ur playing duelist just shoot heads if you cant ur dogshit

Acethyr [#2]

i think iso is just a fragging duelist
if you use iso you only do it with expectations of that player dropping hiroshimas on the enemy team
he can probably be used for setup too but i think thats just a side benefit

Iso has only 1 ability to lean into a fragging duelist. The shield. And the shield all by itself is pretty weak without good support or really demon aim so i don't agree.
His shield ill agree is great support for fragging. But it isn't a true "i can multi frag on this agent" Like reyna because reyna has the dismiss to escape and reposition, iso doesn't have that with the shield.
By all logic duelists are designed as fraggers. Its just that with iso and waylay their utility is weak to setup themselves.

n1cf [#3]

allat

if ur playing duelist just shoot heads if you cant ur dogshit

Grass is green logic
Literally anyone can shoot heads, the reason duelists are duelists is because they have util to set themselves up for favourable duels. The thing with iso and waylay is that their tools arent as powerful for setting themselves up as much as another duelist

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one [#4]

Iso has only 1 ability to lean into a fragging duelist. The shield. And the shield all by itself is pretty weak without good support or really demon aim so i don't agree.
His shield ill agree is great support for fragging. But it isn't a true "i can multi frag on this agent" Like reyna because reyna has the dismiss to escape and reposition, iso doesn't have that with the shield.
By all logic duelists are designed as fraggers. Its just that with iso and waylay their utility is weak to setup themselves.

see thats the thing, he overall only is picked because of his shield. you put your fragger on that agent so all they worry about is kills
thats why you only see players like meteor, alfajer and cryo on iso. he could absolutely be used for setup, but theres better options for that role

so you just put your best aimer on that agent and let them frag.
in fact, him having minimal utility is actually a good thing considering it lets that aimer focus on nothing but their aim and frags

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one [#5]

Grass is green logic
Literally anyone can shoot heads, the reason duelists are duelists is because they have util to set themselves up for favourable duels. The thing with iso and waylay is that their tools arent as powerful for setting themselves up as much as another duelist

Waylay def has the tools tho. Maybe you need to farm ultpoints for it, but even without her ult you can set yourself up with good dash usage.

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one [#4]

Iso has only 1 ability to lean into a fragging duelist. The shield. And the shield all by itself is pretty weak without good support or really demon aim so i don't agree.
His shield ill agree is great support for fragging. But it isn't a true "i can multi frag on this agent" Like reyna because reyna has the dismiss to escape and reposition, iso doesn't have that with the shield.
By all logic duelists are designed as fraggers. Its just that with iso and waylay their utility is weak to setup themselves.

Didn't Iso use to have two shields?

Acethyr [#6]

see thats the thing, he overall only is picked because of his shield. you put your fragger on that agent so all they worry about is kills
thats why you only see players like meteor, alfajer and cryo on iso. he could absolutely be used for setup, but theres better options for that role

so you just put your best aimer on that agent and let them frag.
in fact, him having minimal utility is actually a good thing considering it lets that aimer focus on nothing but their aim and frags

I mean that is the logic of the set up Duelist, throw the kitchen sink out then just aim duel wins.
Waylay works the same way

zekken_is_a_baller [#7]

Waylay def has the tools tho. Maybe you need to farm ultpoints for it, but even without her ult you can set yourself up with good dash usage.

Her tools, are just weaker at setting up herself than compared to a duelist like yoru or raze or neon or jett or Phoenix for that matter.

SudokuDude [#8]

Didn't Iso use to have two shields?

That was pre 2024 neon meta patch

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one [#10]

Her tools, are just weaker at setting up herself than compared to a duelist like yoru or raze or neon or jett or Phoenix for that matter.

I feel like she's similar to phoenix in the sense that you will probably end up farming ult points on attack if you're not playing a double duelist comp. Her kit is actually bonkers for dashing in with a shotgun tho that other duelists can't do that successfully.

We've also seen some pretty slick saturate and dash in combos that worked out well in the right hands. I do agree that she's more of a setup duelist than anything, but let's not act like it's insanely hard to set yourself up.

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one [#11]

That was pre 2024 neon meta patch

I'm slow I meant two walls

SudokuDude [#13]

I'm slow I meant two walls

No but it used to have 2 undercuts

zekken_is_a_baller [#12]

I feel like she's similar to phoenix in the sense that you will probably end up farming ult points on attack if you're not playing a double duelist comp. Her kit is actually bonkers for dashing in with a shotgun tho that other duelists can't do that successfully.

We've also seen some pretty slick saturate and dash in combos that worked out well in the right hands. I do agree that she's more of a setup duelist than anything, but let's not act like it's insanely hard to set yourself up.

I mean its basically like an omen entry vs a Jett entry in the difference. I never said it was impossible, but in the duelist category they're weaker

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one [#15]

I mean its basically like an omen entry vs a Jett entry in the difference. I never said it was impossible, but in the duelist category they're weaker

Waylay still has it's advantages over other duelists. It can act as a "drone" with her dash, which gives you valuable info and potentially forces players to switch positions if they don't want to end up slowed or util dumped. The shotgun dash in gimmick is still insanely powerful and I argue none of the other duelists can pull it off as successfully as waylay can.

Once again, it might be slightly weaker than some of the other duelists at setting themselves up, but the gap isn't as big as you make it out to be.

zekken_is_a_baller [#16]

Waylay still has it's advantages over other duelists. It can act as a "drone" with her dash, which gives you valuable info and potentially forces players to switch positions if they don't want to end up slowed or util dumped. The shotgun dash in gimmick is still insanely powerful and I argue none of the other duelists can pull it off as successfully as waylay can.

Once again, it might be slightly weaker than some of the other duelists at setting themselves up, but the gap isn't as big as you make it out to be.

I mean if you compare duelist to non duelist entry k agree that its basically insignificant in the value
Im just saying that within the duelist category the overall tools of waylay's kit is less powerful as a true entry than compared to an agent like neon.
Its not a large gap and thats not my intention
Within the duelist category this is the pattern i found that these agents have kits that seem weaker than their counterparts in the entry category.
It does not mean that they cant do unique tricks or perform moves no one else can as effectively.
It just means that, looking at the kit they lean towards this element

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one [#17]

I mean if you compare duelist to non duelist entry k agree that its basically insignificant in the value
Im just saying that within the duelist category the overall tools of waylay's kit is less powerful as a true entry than compared to an agent like neon.
Its not a large gap and thats not my intention
Within the duelist category this is the pattern i found that these agents have kits that seem weaker than their counterparts in the entry category.
It does not mean that they cant do unique tricks or perform moves no one else can as effectively.
It just means that, looking at the kit they lean towards this element

I'll say it for the 3rd time, I agree, but you gotta give it to waylay, you can still do some slick things other duelists can't and it slightly makes up for what she's lacking in the pure space creating department.

zekken_is_a_baller [#18]

I'll say it for the 3rd time, I agree, but you gotta give it to waylay, you can still do some slick things other duelists can't and it slightly makes up for what she's lacking in the pure space creating department.

I did right...
Like i accept that waylay can do things others cant... Im just saying that if you just looked at her kit and used just that this is one of the best ways to play said kit.
These agents lean into that more effectively which is why i called them setup duelists, duelists by virtue are entry players, just that these ones are like the second man entry, not your point man

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one [#19]

I did right...
Like i accept that waylay can do things others cant... Im just saying that if you just looked at her kit and used just that this is one of the best ways to play said kit.
These agents lean into that more effectively which is why i called them setup duelists, duelists by virtue are entry players, just that these ones are like the second man entry, not your point man

? I didn't really understand what you've said here but all good. Never said you weren't right, but you made it look like u think waylay is significantly worse than other duelists at pure entrying and creating space alone.

Also by virtue the duelists primary job is creating space, not entrying neccessarily.

zekken_is_a_baller [#20]

? I didn't really understand what you've said here but all good. Never said you weren't right, but you made it look like u think waylay is significantly worse than other duelists at pure entrying and creating space alone.

Also by virtue the duelists primary job is creating space, not entrying neccessarily.

Well i didnt intend that. The gap between duelist non duelist is very very large compared to the internal duelist tendency is what we all know
Im talking like within that duelist role they learn like 20% to this.
That was my intent. Not that waylay or iso cant solo entry. Just that relative to others they are slightly weaker.
Hope you understood. I didnt mean waylay is a bad duelist at the entry

Vyse-Fan_In-more-than-one [#21]

Well i didnt intend that. The gap between duelist non duelist is very very large compared to the internal duelist tendency is what we all know
Im talking like within that duelist role they learn like 20% to this.
That was my intent. Not that waylay or iso cant solo entry. Just that relative to others they are slightly weaker.
Hope you understood. I didnt mean waylay is a bad duelist at the entry

Yeah I got it. You've made some fair points. I said I agreed with you that waylay is more of a setup duelist, ig u just didn't read my comment.