Koi situation makes no sense to me

#1

Mortadelo

I just found out so I might be missing some information so please help me out here

Wtf kind of contract breach is “bad performance”? There was not a lack of content at all and teams like GX are NOT selling more skins than KOI

Before anyone says anything I’m not saying KOI don’t deserve it, it’s not about that. I’m saying this sets a crazy precedent, isn’t franchising supposed to be about stability? What kind of stability do you have if Riot can just kick you at any time?

I suppose we’re missing information but by the way this has been handled it just sounds like Riot needed a spot for M8 and can’t kick GX now that they made champs so they just chose KOI and looked for a reason to terminate the contract

#2

termtermtermterm

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most likely there is more that meets the eye but we can't know for sure

#3

Aquemini

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"Riot accused KOI of “failure to immediately replace Ibai Llanos as the main asset broadcasting the matches” and of not fulfilling the co-streaming hours that were contractually required — a clause unique to KOI within the EMEA partnership structure." Source from Sheep Esports, Cardenete confirmed it some hours ago

#6

Mortadelo

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KOI had SergioFFerra the second biggest streamer in Valorant Spain after Mixwell and he was costreaming every single game.

I guess KOI had a clause saying Ibai had to be costreaming, but my point stands. Even without Ibai KOI is top 5 in numbers in EMEA. Numbers were not the reason at all, they just needed a spot for M8

#9

foythvlr

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this feels a bit unfaithful from riot's part idk. need more information to fully comprehend it

#12

Mortadelo

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It's definitely very unfaithful. They were just that desperate to get M8 in

#17

serot

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I mean tbf it feels like riot was banking on KOI being able to bring in a massive fanbase to valorant but that didn't really happen
Not many fans, low bundle sales, low game viewership compared to expectations
Makes sense that if KOI isn't gonna deliver on the main reason they entered franchising then they get kicked

#18

AlexSMTx

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Hard for the KOI fan base to care about Valorant when their team is actually good in League for example. They got tired of losing 24/7. Still being the team with worst classic sales this year is insane

#22

serot

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we have teams like furia and DFM who have had even longer periods of pure winlessness and they still manage to sell more bundles than KOI

#27

Mortadelo

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KOI do not have bad numbers at all. Yes they do not have a 100K stream anymore but they do have a 10/20K one which is more than most EMEA orgs have.

And yes they haven't been good competitively but, 1. Neither has M8 who have been sucking just as much for 2 years now, and 2. Riot very much knows KOI not being competitive was due certain internal situations now resolved, KOI are the current LEC champions, Riot knows they are a very competent org

That being said I understand they would prefer M8, yes, but they're showing they only care about numbers and if that's the case letting go of KOI is just a very bad choice

#31

serot

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the competition doesn't matter at all atp
teams with terrible histories of winlessness like furia and DFM still pull in more fan engagement than KOI has
In comparison to what M8 has been delivering as a mere ascension team, KOI is a huge letdown in fan engagement. That is where the money is at. You could go winless and riot would not care as long as fans buy merch and participate in the VCT ecosystem monetarily.

#34

Mortadelo

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That argument makes no sense brother. Sure KOI's numbers are down compared to KOI standards, but I can guarantee you here in Spain not even adding the other 2 Spanish orgs TH and GX they can get remotely close to the fanbase KOI has. Even without Ibai KOI is massively beneficial for the scene which can't afford to loose anymore viewers

#39

serot

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domestic viewership doesn't mean much to riot
if you can make money they won't care how many fans from your country you have
TH has a pretty big international fan base afaik and their bundle sales are far from the lowest in VCT (unlike KOI)
and KOI being replaced by M8 is better for the league from a business POV considering how popular M8 is and how well they sell their bundle

#46

Mortadelo

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I think you're confused, KOI does not have low sales compared to other teams, does not have low viewers compared to other teams. They only have low numbers compared to previous years KOI.

It just came down to a KOI vs M8 and M8 is just fucking huge. But if they had a choice KOI vs GX for example I do not believe they would have kicked KOI, they just didn't have that choice

continue thread →

#21

foythvlr

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its understandable that they are pissed that ibai isn't costreaming but idk they could just let it pass with SergioFFerra. it just feels like there was more than this

#25

serot

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The costreaming isn't the issue.
M8 hostaged themselves by threatening to pull out of valorant without a spot, and considering how popular they are it makes sense to keep them in.
Either they keep KOI with bad fan participation or they bring in M8 who have much better fan engagement right now. The costreaming issue was just a good excuse to cut off the contract.

#26

foythvlr

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is this true? lmfao riot bending to a org like this is shameful

#29

toyotacamry

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me when i make up my own conspiracy theories

#33

serot

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if riot weren't pushed to that point by M8 they could have just considered them for the 2027 cycle and kept KOI
This was not a pre planned move. We all heard the rumors about BBL being kicked for M8. Riot are desperate to keep them in valorant this year and there would be no reason for this desperation without M8 strongly communicating an intention to permanently pull out of valorant without a guaranteed spot.

#60

t0p1

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unfortunately ur point doesnt stand in the contract

#61

Mortadelo

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how so

#62

t0p1

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they would stay in emea then

#4

SENfns

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the sheep esports article gives more information than ibai's video if you go read it i don't have the link just look it up

#7

Mortadelo

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I’ll read it thanks

#5

kfan4238173

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i was wondering what youd think bro 💔

#8

Mortadelo

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I’m sad because this year was truly the one they weren’t gonna have any actual issues to build the roster like in the past but I mean obviously from a sporting merit point of view it’s totally deserved

That being said, I do not think it’s the right choice at all. I think it goes completely against the spirit of franchising.

I always defend franchising but this decision completely wrecks my arguments to defend it. I always say the same, if GX sucks next year as much as KOI this one, who would you rather have? Performances change, fanbases is what sticks

#10

Anguibok

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It makes sense if you have followed the recent rumors :

M8 being first in sales and in view
M8 saying they will definitly leave if they are not in VCT in 2026
Rumors saying that Riot was actively trying to find a way to boot either BBL or FUT to keep M8
M8 owner say KOI being boot out VCT few hour before it's announced
KOI being booted up and Ibai saying thats because of M8

Next week M8 will announce they are chosen by Riot to be in VCT

Nous sachons

#11

Mortadelo

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I understand that it's to get M8 in, but how does that make it any better? Basically they found a loophole in KOI's contract to kick them out and get M8 in. What kind of stability does Franchising provide if Riot is doing this kind of thing?

Also can't even argue "performance" anymore because M8 fucking sucks too. It's all about viewers and numbers and if viewers and numbers is what you want then KOI is not anywhere close to worse in the league. They're much bigger than the 2 other spanish orgs for example.

I understand it had to be KOI because they're the only ones with the loophole in the contract but man it's really fucked up

#13

c4rrotstix

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I think that while it is fucked up, it is also entirely on KOI for allowing riot to find any way that they breached their contract to kick them. If they wanted to keep their slot they shouldn't have breached their contract, like BBL/any of the other teams Riot was looking at didn't.

Also, KOI's management has been shady at best for a bit and it probably doesn't help ibai's case

#14

Mortadelo

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It's not that simple. The loophole was that they had a clause where it was Ibai who had to be doing the costreaming or provide a "suitable" alternative. However Ibai decided to step down from costreaming all games (Valorant and LOL) and cut in 1/3rd his streaming hours for his mental health. KOI provided a more than suitable substitute in SergioFFerra, (much bigger costreams than TH and GX)

Riot just decided to arbitrarily deem the alternative "not suitable" in order to get M8 in.

Imo it's just very fucked up, Ibai stepped down from all costreams for his mental, is not like he was streaming something else

#19

serot

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I mean yeah its shady af but a contract is a contract. If riot wants to replace you you absolutely cannot give them a reason to do so pre 2027.

#30

Mortadelo

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1 Yes, Obviously but the man quit due mental health, what is KOI supposed to do in that situation

2 There's also the Riot part here do they really wanna fight KOI? KOI is one of the main reason why the LEC is alive and they can't just get rid of them there. Is it really a good choice for Riot to piss them off like this?

#36

serot

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KOI need the LEC just as much as riot needs them. Its a mutually beneficial partnership, and unless KOI wants to kill their org permanently they have no choice but to keep participating in the LEC. League is still the biggest esport in the world by far and KOI would be stupid to give up on it over their own breach of contract. Riot isn't making the ethically correct choice maybe, but they are making a calculated business choice knowing that it won't affect the LEC at all.

#42

Mortadelo

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I'm not saying KOI would pull out of LEC, I'm saying you're breaking the trust and dealing in bad faith with someone you're forced to keep doing business for a long time, it's just not a fucking good idea.

There's a big difference between insulting a random dude in the street and insulting a coworker you have to keep seeing everyday

#44

serot

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KOI broke the contract first they have zero grounds to complain
If anything KOI broke trust by failing to uphold the contract they signed, regardless of circumstances
This is not some betrayal, its just business
I get you are mad about it as a fan but this is just reality. Riot on paper did nothing wrong and KOI made the mistake and got punished accordingly.

#49

NRGSUPERFAN

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if riot is willing to cut a big org like KOI over such a small issue, then that shows that other franchising teams can get the boot if another big fish appears. this whole situation is just very unprofessional and ruins the trust between KOI and RIOT. this could end up being an issue in LEC.

How are orgs going to trust in their place, when they are able to be kicked out on such a small issue? KOI's views arent the lowest and neither are their fanbase.

continue thread →

#54

Mortadelo

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KOI broke the contract first they have zero grounds to complain

Brother, reread the whole thread again you're clearly very very lost if that's what you think. Ibai stepped down due to mental health, KOI fixed it providing a better costream than most teams and Riot used their ability to deem the solution not good enough as a loophole to terminate the contract when Riot very much knows that's not the reason.

Yes it's dealing in bad faith, and yes as much as Riot can terminate the contract, KOI has the right to complain as much as the want

continue thread →

#37

Anguibok

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I suppose they are other alternative like letting his friend costreaming on his own channel instead of letting him stream on a small channel, maybe he could compensate by signing a popular retired player a little bit lit TH did with Mixwell
I think Riot felt KOI did only half as promises, lack of cocast, lack of promotion, low classicsells, I think they where hoping that it could give KOI an electroshock for 2027, but it didnt rok.

At the end of the day I just think booting the most clouted ESP org was not a good decision, especially for a crybaby thing

#43

Mortadelo

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1 Mixwell is with OTK not TH and SergioFFerra is by far the second biggest Spanish streamer so they literally couldn't sign anyone better than Sergio. Also they costreamings were fucking great, they had a whole a production studio to do the matches and much better numbers than 80% of other EMEA orgs.

2 As we already concluded this has nothing to do with the costreaming, it has to do with the fact that they would rather have M8 than KOI, even if KOI was the second most valuable org for them(not saying they were) M8 was higher on the priority list. It's just unfair imo

#45

Anguibok

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I've heard only 12k~20k peak viewer, is that true ? If thats the case it does sounds really low since KC is at minimum at 50k, and I think M8 have once passed 100k

#48

Mortadelo

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You're making a mistake. Yes KC gets 50K, yes M8 gets 100k. But that does not make 12/20k low. How much does GX get? TH? NAVI? Does FNC have a costream? Does VIT have one? (I genuinely don't know) I don't imagine Sliggy gets more than 20k for TL. So what we can comfortably say there are 2 teams with bigger costreams? The turks probably too idk tbh I haven't checked

continue thread →

#35

Anguibok

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It's not for performance, it's just view and sales, I'm pretty sure if M8 didnt has blackmail Riot, both team would be partner in 2027 and a team like GX would be out.
M8 gave Riot a dilemma, either you boot a team for 2026, or you lose forever the best team in term of view you ever have in VCT EMEA, in that situation, they are no good choice if you are Riot

#40

Mortadelo

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Yes I understand the situation and yes I understand Riot's choice. Doesn't make what they did to KOI any less shitty and dealing in bad faith like they did today and giving in to blackmail is just a fucking terrible precedent.

Also I do not believe for a second if M8 didn't get a spot now and Riot called them next year they would say no, not a fucking chance

#15

capital_d_colon

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I just can't see it as a good long term decision, especially with partnership contracts up in 2026.
Ideally, long term you would want both GentleMates and Koi in the ecosystem.
The way this all went down makes me think there is a good chance Koi might not be involved in the next partnership cycle.

#16

Mortadelo

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I'm not sure KOI wants to be involved in the next partnership cycle atp. And the relationship breaking is a big issue because KOI have an LEC spot and that doesn't just go away like this one. I actually don't understand what's Riots problem with KOI as an org but they definitely have one. The way KOI gets treated in LEC you can tell there's an issue with them.

This is not a deportive decision, but it's also crazy in that aspect because Riot very much knows the difficulties KOI has had in VCT and how they are solved now. They know KOI is more than capable to be competitive because they're literally the current LEC champions, Riot knows they're more than competent

#20

serot

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M8 basically hostaged themselves by forcing riot to pick between them and KOI by threatening to leave valorant if they didn't get a spot. I think KOI still should try to get involved in partnership but riot definitely burned a few bridges with them with the way they handled it. They could have at least offered some verbal assurance of a 2027 spot consideration.

#24

dimmed

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Idek if that was really M8's intentions to hostage themselves, like they said they would consider in 2027 but obviously they wouldn't compete in T2 next year

#28

serot

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Well clearly riot didn't get that message. If M8 weren't seemingly desperately needed in valorant then riot would not even bother removing KOI. M8 probably communicated a high likelyhood of pulling out entirely if they weren't given a spot.

#38

Anguibok

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"Ideally, long term you would want both GentleMates and Koi in the ecosystem."
Exactly, but Sadfully M8 put a dilamna to Riot "Either we are in VCT in 2026, either it's ciao forever", and Riot couldnt find a breach in FUT or BBL contract.

The best solution would have been to give M8 a "Provisional Guest" to M8 (Or KOI) and promote only one team in ascention, but everyone would have call the move unacceptable

#23

Aayan

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To me it seems like Riot kicked KOI out on a technicality so they can let M8 come back. (There were rumours of them doing this to BBL a few days ago)
KOI obviously haven't been great, I understand why Riot doesn't want them in the circuit but they handled this in a really shit way imo.

I would've much preferred for Riot to not extent their contract in 2027 over this mess.
M8 are better for the esport yes, but I really think they shouldn't be rewarded for throwing a fit (M8 staff have said that they would not compete in Valorant if they didn't get a VCT spot for 2026)

I say all of this as someone who really doesn't care about KOI, I'm just concerned about how Riot handles things

#32

Mortadelo

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KOI obviously haven't been great, I understand why Riot doesn't want them in the circuit but they handled this in a really shit way imo.

I agree but is not like M8 have been any better? They fucking suck too xD

That being said I totally understand sacrificing KOI was their only choice to get M8 in and that's why they did it, but I just think it's a terrible mistake

#47

skibiditoiletfanhuge

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it’s shit vs more shit but one shit makes money

#41

shrike-

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given what i'm seeing in this thread it seems i'll have a team to hatewatch this upcoming season

#50

sexocum

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they had Sergio Ferra which is odd, there's either more underneath or rito is doing them dirty