Didn't he used to like No-Duelist comp or something. What was the reason for this especially during that meta
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Saadhak
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he shit himself in the meeting room when aspas shared to his team that he was leaving for LEV and instead of getting up and admitting his incident since everyone already heard it happen he instead went on to bullshit the fact that he doesn’t really need a duelist on his team in hopes of diverting the attention to something more on topic and engaging
no duelist was a cool idea for teams that like to contact a lot + back then agents had a lot more util so you didnt really need dive on maps like ascent, icebox, or sunset if you knew how to work the map on attack, and once you got the bomb down setting up a post plant became insane. Plus on defense the fact that you can have dbl smokes, scans, flashes, and a dedicated senti allows for insane site holds.
only reason it didnt really play out was bc of all the agent nerfs that kept hitting the agents that made no duelist somewhat viable, and for the most part on attack side it can be hard to breach into a site against a good team without a dive agent. I still think that its really good on like icebox and has potential on easy plant maps like sunset or even corrode
nah, clove is by far worse than omen, at least omen provides some sort of movement ability. It's just that the team wasn't really that amazing enough to play no duelist (i'm assuming you meant early 2024 with qck, which they did technically play duelist it was just phoenix so really it was no dive). If in 2023 they got aspas to play like kayo or something and they had like omen/harbor, viper, kayo/breach, sova/fade, and a kj/cypher comps on a few maps then it really couldve worked, I mean prx played hella no duelist on sunset last year and it worked for a bit. Another problem was that he played it way too much and relied too heavy on a few really good set plays, so when they got anti'd he didnt really have anything to follow it up with, especially considering there was no dive to aggro take space anywhere.
The core idea tho of playing 2 smokes and 2 initi I still think is extremely meta on most maps just bc you have so much sheer util that losing a bit of passive info and space is fine bc you have much more flexibility to clear/reclear space aggressively, and that was the core idea of the early 2024 saadhak comps. He even said that he didn't think sentis were that good, but he did overcook by relying on pack util/contact ideas to heavily which just led to him getting antid like every map
Iirc he first tried it on Ascent but it didn't work that good. They waited too long to enter the sites
They had all the info but no entries
Maps like Sunset are util depended. Prx aggresive approach helped them enter sites but for Loud it was exact opposite
Qck's phoenix didn't really much helped them and by the time they realised, it was too late
But I rlly didn't understand why he hated sentis
I mean loud was also aggro, its just they did a lot more mid contact plays and less 5 man straight execs.
I actually I agree with him that on most maps you dont need a cypher/kj, bc on defense they only really provide a bit of passive info and some stall, and on attack they really only put up a flank trip and then lurk. Conversely, if you play like a viper instead you still have that stall util, but on attack you have one of the strongest agents in the game for lurking and applying pressure while still being able to help the team. Really viper is the reason no senti works so well, bc she takes up half the role of a senti while providing something no other agent can do. Plus, giving up the senti allows you to still play double initi with double smokes, which are the two best archetypes in the game. On some maps where there are more than 3-4 chokes like haven or lotus (although lotus has been moving away from a trad senti) you start to really need passive info to hold at least 1 site or else youre spread too thin, and a map like icebox is so attacker sided for sites while having a very open lurky mid that you kinda need a senti just to hold the map together.
tbf thats not really the issue with no dive, its just that you physically cannot enter certain parts of the map like ascent a main, but areas like mid on most maps and sunset b site become insanely easy to bully off defenders. really its just an extreme tradeoff that depends on map to map. biggest problem with no dive tho is that you cant apply pressure around 1 minute mark and actually threaten fast splits, and instead you have to brute force your way in, which on a map like icebox is good because anyways thats how everyone already plays that map
well the phoenix comp precisely got bullied by the odins so yes that was kind of the problem. If you don't have anything to break crossfires and strong holds then as soon as the defenders have a good read on what you're doing you're fucked. Also it terribly limits the possibilities of what you can do on both attack and defense. In theory it sounds good but in the server in won't work against people who know what they're doing (which is why it's viable in ranked to an extent)
The SEN FPX game at champs was also a good exemple of why no dive fundamentaly doesn't work out in reality
that was a few rounds against eg, if you looked at most of their bad games it was just bc they got counter utiled and had no other space to play off of. On defense, no duelist is actually really good granted you have plenty of other util, bc you can just perma hold so much space and not even have to play full team/full exec retakes.
also yk that 1 drone and a molly can clear out corners right? most of the crossfires that abused the comp worked bc they got set up by a sova dart or an omen flash, eg had a really good setup for example on ascent during kickoff (if they didnt have an odin it still would have worked pretty well)
they also got owned by sen on their defense, a drone is good but it means you have to use it for when you enter the site or take one area of the map, and if you don't then you're fucked and if the bucky is somewhere else you're fucked too. There's a reason even in CS you have people jumping to mimick a dive ability; breaking crosshair placements is just necessary in so many scenarios
No I totally agree that dive is the way to go, and that it is definitely a core piece of util. At the same time it is definitely not impossible to run no dive, and the benefits of having a shit ton of initi/controller util can partially make up for no dive. For example, a sunset comp like:
Omen
Viper
Fade
Gekko
Vyse
Can help to offset no duelist bc you have omen tp for a psuedo dive for faster execs, plenty of refreshable info util like fade eye, gekko drone + flash, and vyse flash, you have fade dogs to clear out closer corners and get more general info, and a viper setup to lurk and apply pressure. Ofc a duelist would help a lot for execs, but playing a comp like this where you get a sheer amount of util can counteract the negative effects of no duelist while giving you all the benefits such as a strong defense hold, great post plants, and more general utility for execs
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