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Duelist Class Balancing

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#1
randomperson

Don't agree with some changes I've seen so I'm going to make my own
Changes have been made taking into account replies

JETT
Cloudburst:

  • Cloudburst cost increased to 250
  • Cloudburst duration increased to 4 seconds

RAZE
Blast Pack:

  • Black Pack effect to enemies is halved

Showstopper:

  • Ult now costs 9 ult points

NEON
High Gear:

  • Slide distance is now increased by half a meter
  • Slide recharges after every kill
  • Slide consumes 20 energy

Fast Lane:

  • Wall damage is brought back, hurts teammates and enemies

Relay Bolt:

  • First stun does not have to wait for second stun to activate
  • Stun duration increased to 3.5s

YORU
Gatecrash:

  • Gatecrash duration increased to 40s
  • 2 Gatecrashes may be deployed at a time but both will be destroyed on use
  • Gatecrash cost increased to 200

Phoenix
Blaze:

  • Wall length is now increased from 21 >> 25 meters
  • Wall heal increased to 12 health per second

Hothands:

  • Molly heal increased to 30 health per second

Run it Back:

  • Ult cost increased to 7 ult points
  • Phoenix regains full ability kit on use of ult (once ult is done phoenix respawns with the abilities he had before ulting)

REYNA
Leer:

  • Leer cost increased to 300
  • Enemies Breaking the leer will take away 30 health from them and add to Reyna (overheal)

Devour/Dismiss:

  • Ability cost increased to 250
  • Abilities are now seperate abilities
  • Devour is the signature ability only getting 1 charge for free
  • Dismiss only has 1 charge
  • Reyna can use abilities off of any assist

ISO
Contingency:

  • Contingency now has an added charge

Double Tap:

  • Killing enemies grants the shield after 0.2 second (no more orb)

Kill Contract:

  • All enemies caught in the iso ultimate will gain a status effect (Duel)
  • Iso takes enemies into his domain 1 by 1, order is decided on distance from Iso's ult point, if Iso dies the status effects are gone and the ult is finished
  • Enemies taken into Iso's domain do not regain health or shield
  • Ult cost increased to 8 ult points
#2
spookmeister
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im sorry these are some of the worst hypothetical changes i have ever seen
i can go in depth with that ifyou want but like DAMN bro

edit: bro listens to criticism so he cool. half of them arent even that bad its just some are really bad. def not the worst i was just shocked

#3
randomperson
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i think the reyna and iso ones are a bit iffy but i dont see whats bad abt the others
could you explain?

#4
DeyahAlAjarma
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look at my recent thread, it has much better changes

#8
1phnxe
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That reyna leer buff is actually crazy like wtf were u on when thinking of that.

Also Phoenix would be so OP and a mustpick almost.

#9
randomperson
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hmmm yeah i see what you mean with phoenix
with reyna i wanted to make reyna more of a duelist and that leer buff would help take space as enemies would have to give up the space or take damage giving reyna an advantage in the entry. maybe removing the heal from reyna would work?

phoenix maybe remove the ult change
and the molly size change

#15
kanyenum1fan
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taking hp for a blind is absurd, giving it to the reyna is even crazier

#19
spookmeister
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if you change it from punishment for breaking into punishment for NOT breaking and tweak "health to reyna" just to "slight decay" then its actually kinda OK.
To be specific: Enemies who do NOT break a leer within a second take slight decay effect until a second after the leer is broken, no more than the effect of walking through a viper wall (not staying within it)

#18
spookmeister
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Sure, i mean this is my perspective obviously, but this is what i see wrong with it. Keep in mind i SOUNDED rude asf but i wasn't really, i was just surprised. No hard feelings here, not too serious, and obviously i overstated how bad they are - sure some of them are real bad but others are perfectly fine.
Personally i play literally every agent in the game pretty competently, minus sova, iso, yoru, and kinda cypher (timings), so i feel like I have a broadish view from duelist and non duelist POV of what is too strong of a nerf, what is too light, etc

Now what I see wrong:

-Jett isnt actually that busted rn, IMO. The smokes have already been HEAVILY nerfed (3-->2 charge, FAR less duration), so nerfing them further by increasing the cost only further punishes something that has already been nerfed to what I feel is a decent state.

-I do think raze is too strong rn (COMPARED TO ALTERNATIVES). You can take the damage from Raze's blast packs away, and maybe change some other things, but removing their ability to knockback/disrupt enemies reeeeeally hurts what I feel is a core part of the ability. The ability to push enemies with the blast packs is strong, but reasonably so - it doesnt feel overpowered, IMO. If it gets tossed at you and isnt detonated, you can shoot it so the raze cant use it to push you when they go to swing. When it is deto'd midair in front of you, the amount it moves you is pretty little, and if youre against a wall, you dont really go anywhere. Midair deto's (i believe) already deal no damage, so the most it can do is force a peek or cancel defuse. Even then, if its too far away by even a LITTLE, it does practically nothing, like a cm of movement total (which doesnt actually cancel defuse i think if its that little). Changes to Raze would need to be something different - maybe even to the point to a LIGHT rework (not complete). In her current state, i feel like almost any nerf is too strong of a nerf, but any buff would make her unbelievably OP - so to make her in a better spot, a small tweak would need to be made, that is more than just a numbers change like a nerf is.

-Neon changes are for the most part actually pretty good! i think there should be SOME timer on the first stun but it should 100% be pretty short, def shorter than the second stun, i mostly agree with that. Wall damage for neon is iffy - the reason it was removed wasn't really because it was too strong, but because it did too much damage to enemies AND teammates. Because it's so thin and there are two damage sources, it would MELT teammates HP. If you bring back the damage, you have to significantly decrease team (and enemy) damage and probably make it a good bit wider so that someone walking through wouldnt almost immediately be torn up by the second wall. It is 100% reasonable for it to deal chip damage, though. other than that, slide dist. increase is fine (not sure how it would look in game, but the idea is fine), but recharge after 1 kill i feel is too little. I think it could reasonably be on a somewhat short cooldown (20,30s to get new slide charge?), but 1 kill recharge is a bit too strong I feel.

-yoru changes are kinda ok but also kinda really bad. Cooldown duration/timer for how long it lasts is fine, but the ability to have 2 up at once is actually a nerf when you think about it. Instead of just being able to TP by pressing a button and saving the life, it would take the extra moment to move you mouse to look at the correct TP location and then press E on it (like a cypher cage or KJ nade). Cost increase is fine tho. Also like neon a TP per kill is a bit strong

-Phoenix changes are like yoru, half good half bad. For the wall, I agree it could be longer as a general buff, but the ability to pass through walls like a harbor wall is too strong - take Pearl, for example, Phoenix could just completely replace a secondary controller like Harbor, at least for site hits - imagine hitting A site and phx walls off elbow/mid link (i forgot the callouts lol) and then astra smokes pit and flowers. For damage/heal i cant really imagine those so i cant say if they're good or bad. Increasing the molly size would be waaaay too strong, for obvious reasons, esp if you increase damage as hothands ALREADY does more damage than mosh on ticks(mosh is low tick dmg + high burst dmg, hothands is high tick dmg). Ult change is actually kinda nice though, maybe only 1 flash charge tho so its not TOO strong.

-For reyna, fixing her is already hard enough, so its fine that these arent the best changes because HOW do you fix her?? Even i dont know. I DO know though that punishing enemies for breaking leers isn't the right choice - though i COULD see something like NOT breaking a leer and being in sightline of it applying some light decay on the enemy, kinda like walking through a viper wall. The devour and dismiss changes are fine i mean like i said theyre hard to come up with changes to anyway.

-For iso, double tap giving insta-shield is just too strong, thats all i really have to say. makes it too easy. Otherwise, my issue with the ult depends on a clarification: do ALL hit enemies get "taken in" and dueled one by one, or is it one by one being "taken in", and they are still able to move around, shoot, and such, until their "turn" comes? Because if it removes all hit enemies from the map, its too strong but now that I think about it you probably meant the latter option.

Anyway thats what I saw. Again i really did overreact these arent THAT bad overall but a few of them are

#20
randomperson
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yeah the latter option for iso ult so they will just have the status effect duel which will let them know that they are tagged by the iso ult

ive made a few changes based off of what you have said

#21
spookmeister
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Thanks for being receptive bro, sorry for being kinda rude about it

#23
randomperson
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yeah its alright im more trying to find what the community think would be almost perfect changes so your critisism was very helpful

#22
randomperson
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i think my favourite changes ive made are the neon ones, i think the slide distance increase will help neon entry more, the wall doesnt need to do as much damage and could even only damage enemies, i just want them to be less likely to run into the wall.
also the slide recharge off of a kill could make some banger clips i cant lie so i actually like it

i removed the gatecrash recharge off of a kill but im gonna keep the 2 deployed at a time idea because i think it would be very intresting and create more plays, i also dont want yorus tp to be like chamber tp or jett dash anyways so i dont think that is much of a problem.

for reyna i made the damage and heal less so people will still shoot it but may hesitate, i also increased the price of the leer to balance it out, also removed a devour as the blinds should make up for that being more of a team ability and removing one of reynas selfish abilities

phoenix i removed the damage changes cause i actually dont think the damage output is bad, i also removed the molly size change and the wall going through walls. i am keeping the heal increase because i feel like phoenix heal should be faster and more

for raze i just wanted to reduce the amount of things her blastpack can do, some of your changes could work. also could just lessen the amount enemies are pushed instead of taking it completely away

#24
randomperson
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jett change i want to be able to stick spike with cloudbursts again but i increased the price to balance out the change

#26
randomperson
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maybe instead of instantly granting the shield for iso there is a 0.2s delay?
dont know how long the delay should be i think it should be the average time it takes for someone to hit the orb so that they get the shield up at a similar time but they dont have to shoot an orb

#5
Coures
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i like these : D

#6
attach
2
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first 3 were good but the rest after just not it fam

#7
randomperson
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im interested in seeing why you think the rest arent good
so i get what changes should be made

#10
cloudberry
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Gekko's Mosh Pit is absolutely MASSIVE. The only reason it can be that big without being broken is the fact that it only explodes after a few seconds. Otherwise it's just insane

#11
Siigma777
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aren't these literally what TMV suggested in his video...

#13
cloudberry
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A few of them, yea.

#17
randomperson
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yeah i took some from his vid cause hes got good ideas yk

#12
saebr
1
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Jett: IMO, her cloudburst is already very weak that increasing the price without changing anything else seems a little strange? if you want to increase the price, the duration should be increased. to 4 seconds maybe.
Yoru: not sure how change #2 would work. the gatecrash recharge after every kill seems very powerful to me, and i think leaving it at 2 kills needed is fine.
Phoenix: i think allowing his wall to go through walls is very interesting but seems very powerful to me since if he still has wall in post plant he would be able to do a lot without much counterplay options left for the enemy. gecko mosh is very big so i don't think it would be such a good idea to increase it to such a scale. the damage also seems to be fine to me, i think his molly is very powerful as is and buffing so much is a bit overkill. the ultimate rework is interesting, but i think his ultimate is fine as is, you already get your health restored to 100 after using your ultimate which to me, is already very powerful. phoenix is just in a strange spot right now.
Reyna: the eye taking health away from the person who breaks it is an interesting idea but i already have problems with trying to get my teammates to shoot reyna blind in my ranked games.. the eye taking away health would not help at all D: so i see a potential problem there... won't comment on anything else since reyna is my least played character by far
Iso: interesting take on his ultimate. could be extremely fun to watch or play as iso. i'm not sure how on how balanced it is, but i like the idea :D

the raze and neon changes are fine though IMO

#25
randomperson
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thanks for the critisism, i have made changes
for the second yoru change 2 tps will be down and the tp used will depend on which one you are looking at (like a kj mollys)

#14
tygers99
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TMV watchers

#16
kanyenum1fan
0
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that reyna blind idea is the worst idea ever

#27
swerdog
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Some of these are pretty wild ngl (phoenix/iso/reyna), but there's also some good stuff here. I could see some of the others happening although probably not all at the same time, considering rito would want to see how certain changes impact other duelist pickrates.

As a neon one-trick, I do want to talk about the neon changes. I'm really skeptical of changing the slide cooldown to 1 kill. I think it would be completely broken. Being able to slide peek an angle you know someone is holding, get a free kill, and then proceed to do it again and again sounds insane to me. I think giving high her gear a faster recharge rate would be a better way of buffing her signature. I also don't think changing the stun activation time is necessary. I actually really like the way her stun functions with how you have to think on the fly and throw the stun accordingly depending on how you want to take the fight. Its a pretty satisfying gameplay component imo. The stun getting an extra half second is really good, would definitely allow for more space to be taken, especially when you're stunning for your team who can't scale up as fast as you can. I have seen a lot of discussion about giving it 20 damage to break senti utility, but that also might be way too good, being able to break 2 locations (and twice!) without exposing yourself is too powerful.

I like the wall damage coming back and the slide being longer. I actually think giving her slide the 20 damage in an aura around her would be interesting so she could hard entry through util, particularly cypher trips, as shes the is basically the only duelist that can't do anything about them.

#29
randomperson
2
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i think maybe making the slide consume 20 of neons energy could work with the 1 kill slides
also i just wanna see come neon clips in pro play i cant lie that shit would be so entertaining

#31
swerdog
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That could be a good tradeoff, although you are already getting full energy on a kill so it might not matter as much. Don't get me wrong though, you fucking cooked with this.
And yeah she's so fun to play and watch its a shame that she sees so little proplay, especially in americas. Also most pros who do play her dont even seem to know about some of her tech

#32
randomperson
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maybe you only get 50 energy on kill but slide takes 20 away?
that may affect neon in a bad way tho
also could make it so that in the ult its still 100 on refresh

#28
Conceit
2
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The Neon changes are actually so based

#30
randomperson
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yeah those were my favourite changes i made

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