in the end, it doesnt even matter

it doesnt even matter

there should be "achievements" in the game where you gain a free purple/orange skin if you complete them like reach level 100, play for 100 hours, reach 1000 total kills etc

born ready

ION is so overrated bro i swear, its just ugly and doesnt even sounds good

honestly there is no way to tell anything with these first games in the new meta, we just have no idea about so much stuff

i think GENG are slight favorites just because their core is together for longer and have more experience internationally, but the game could go either way

Haikyuu

you could argue Hinata somewhat fits 1 because of his demeanor and smallness but he's like a physical monster and his athelics are complimented since the beginning of the series. He was literally the only stand-out player on his first team and an amazing talent, so he doesnt qualify as a loser at all at least not to me

who is our only good player? is it one of the 3 that are in the top 10 OAT? The 18y global ACS leader? Maybe the 17y who carried his team to an ascension win? One of the 2 that made masters in their rookie year? im struggling to choose

anyone that denies Brasil is on this list has zero ball knowledge btw. Brasil is the only country alongside Russia to have 3 players in the top 10 of all time (including the number one). Number one ACS player in Stage 1 in the whole world is a 18y brazilian kid that played for a 0-5 team. There was never an international event without at least one brazilian player and its one of the only countries to have players winning at least one ascension, regional, masters and champs trophy.

rapid peak is like 1400
blitz idk never played much but 1000 something i guess?

forsaken vandal is terrible idc, the OP, ghost and guardian are nice but vandal just feels horrible

aemondir vandal is underrated af as well

to be fair Tenz is not the best example i just used the one i see the more often on VLR. My main problem is not with diminishing Tenz especifically is just discrediting players from old times in general using this argument. Just think about it with someone else or in other competitions like Pele or MJ. You cant diminish what they did back in the day and undermine their greatness because of the level of play, thats just dumb.

and faker is a bad example because he is winning shit to this day so of course he is not debated

ok so i will put it like this: Good players in 2025 are way better than good players were at 2021, not even close. If we are discussing how >good< a player is, then i can agree. My problem with this argument is when its used to deny the >greatness< of a player or to say that X player is not >great< or the greatest because of the level of play at the time. Yes the game evolves, but what causes the game to evolve are the players. When Tenz started dominating everyone, people began to think of a way to stop him and the game evolved. Today, everyone would stop him. Do you realize that he was the cause of this change? People needed to catch up to him, he was ahead of his time. Thats a sign of greatness.

When i say that people are "taking away" credit from great players of the old times, i say this because we cant compare what they did at the time with how it is today and use it as a metric, because this will inherently put them at a disadvantage. We cant compare times, we have to put into perspective. The whole OP's point is to show how trying to discredit greatness by using level of play is dumb because its incomparable and not something that takes away their merits, therefore their greatness, so takes like "MJ cant be the GOAT because the league evolved after he played" are just not true.

Thank you for the discussion im too tired to continue this but it was fun

its fine its not like i expected reading comprehension out of the average vlr user

Agree

im not comparing tenz to newton im comparing the narratives. The analogy is not about Tenz = Newton is about how people can diminish every single achievement in human history with this dumb way of thinking. but fine go ahead and interpret it the worst way possible and act like its my fault

yes its a fact people were not as good as they are today, but by saying this you are essentially saying that people back in the MJ times were a bunch of clowns because they were caring about trophy wins that were bound to get outdated, you are also denying the importance of every single trophy and hardwork basketball pros are putting in today because the game will evolve again eventually. You are basically saying we shouldnt care about the game being played today because it will be outdated in the future. Valorant is still very young, so are you going to use this same argument 10 years into the future to diminish what pros are doing today as well? You dont actually believe that, do you? No, you dont, because you know the effort pros are putting in to win is genuine, you know that the people on VCT are the best players the world has to offer in the moment, and the moment is all that matters. You dont give a single fuck about what will happen in the future.

no because they didnt do shit afterwards

you can't be the greatest of all time if you can't compete at the highest level against all generations of the game you play

switch "greatest" for "best" and its a true sentence, but greatness doesnt exactly correlate with how good you were at the game, it also has to do with trophy wins, how ahead of your time you were, your fame, influence etc.

yeah i can agree with that, i think he definitely evolved as a player in 2024 compared to his early days

i mean yeah? he's the GOAT for a reason

yep they were letting tenz win, no one was actually trying, it was all just a set play for the tenz show, no one was competing at all

you are the only zellsis word here if you think that way. Being good when everyone else isnt is impressive in every single possible context imaginable but when its competition people come up with sorry excuses to justify their narratives. Also holy fuck are you implying that Newton "invented gravity"? you are braindead lmao

ok can we stop with this argument? this is literally one of the dumbest arguments one could possibly use. For example "Tenz peak at 2021 was not that good because everyone was bad at the time" yeah bro guess what, thats precisely why its so impressive, he was that good when no one else was, this is what "being ahead of you time", a genius, a prodigy, means. Its like saying Isaac Newton was not that smart its just that everyone else was dumb and couldnt figure out gravity, like even today i bet most people cant properly explain what gravity is if you ask them.

Dumbest argument ever.

Trent/Riens
Forsaken
Mako
Keznit
Foxy9/Leaf

sacy actually and bigger ones at that

1. Aspas
2. Chronicle
3. Derke
4. Leo
5. Less
6. Nats
7. Alfajer
8. Tenz
9. Sacy
10. ZmjjKK

HM:
mako
forsaken
yay
zekken
jawgemo
meteor

Os 3 times de 2022 tem >>dois<< jogadores da LOUD po KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK os cara sao mt palhaço vsfd

nice ragebait

wtf why does it looks like this

MIBR - Annoying fanbase
looks inside
optic fan

agree on TH thou

he is in the conversation for sure but i think Trent is ahead of him as of now, would be my number 2 thou

ok, how is aspas not selectable on LEV. Also hot take but Less > Aspas if we are considering only how good they were while at LOUD

I mean its nAts like... if Leo decides to IGL im pretty sure he is still going to be the best player on the team regardless, its not like his teamates are bad he is just very good

lmao you'll are so petty with you narratives you literally created a trophy out of thin air and gave it to Nats. Also the fact that no one even mentioned the GOAT yet you cant help but mention him since you know he clears Nats is hilarious

MIBR at least to playoffs is my expectation
MIBR at top 3 is my hope
MIBR to win is my dream

FURIA's new roster is about to cook, if the rumors are true this could be the first time FURIA gets me excited to watch them

why is #3 a dumb take then? you people keep saying that without providing counter arguments. Lurking was in fact already an existing concept and all that Nats did was in fact be the first one to abuse it in Valorant, i never lied at any point. Also you call my takes dumb yet you type "Less only has good mechanics and aim but he has no creativeness and stealthyness in his gameplay" lmao bro if im dumb then you are a fucking potato

by "similar performance" im going to assume you only mean Goals/Assists, so:

Yamal better? Definitely, not even close
more accomplished? No

But thats the point, greatness also takes into consideration your quality as a player. So, by doing impressive shit younger you stablish that you are more talented and naturally better at it than most people, and more gifted players increase in greatness because they are rarer, its all there is to it.

obviously it does add weight to the achievements, or are you saying that winning champs at 17 is easier than at 26? Please guys its not that hard to understand, using the Yamal example again, if he wins the ballondor this year it will obviously be more impressive than if Raphina won because he is like 10 years younger

because a good 5 does not equal a good team and never will

?? yes?? Thats the reason why Yamal for example is extremely impressive. News flash: Being very good at a young age is more impressive than being very good older

#3 is objectively true
Again, use your eyes and watch the games instead of relying on team results all the time, Less is 3x the player that Sacy is

Less is the best Viper OAT and the youngest player to ever win Champs which will never change because he won it at 17 (was already a master finalist at 16)

nAts: #3
Sacy: Look man i love sacy more than anyone but even thou he is more accomplished sometimes you have to just watch the games with your eyes instead of counting trophies. Sacy is not even half the player that Less is
yay: Insane peak, nothing more after that. Cant be better than Less "all time"
KK: Champs MVP is the only thing going for him, not better than Less all time as well

no and dont even come at me with "he invented lurking" because lurking is a thing since CS, Nats was only the first one to learn how to abuse it in Valorant, which is still very impressive but its nowhere near as impressive as what Less has done

He is only behind Aspas, Chronicle, Derke, Leo and Alfa.

Without pickles please

There is absolutely no way Alfa is top 10 but Less isnt btw

Alfa: Lock in🥇 Tokyo🥇 Champs 23 4th
Less: Reykjavik 🥈Champs 22 🥇 Lock in 🥈Champs 23 🥉 Madrid 4th Bangkok 4th

im not saying Less should be higher or anything but he is unarguably not that far behind Alfa

sorry but with the recent patch i dont see a world where MIBR is 2 whole tiers below G2

aside from that pretty good list