EMEA COME | VLR.gg

#117

Astroman77

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"There is no evidence to say Brazilian players were better when they played for BR clubs"

Is three World Cup wins not evidence enough? Football is purely based on results. Is 20 years without a World Cup win not enough? During this drought, the Brazilian national team was composed of 80% of players who played outside of Brazil. Zero World Cups.

"if that was the case why doesnt your current squad just field BR club players - or are they not as good as the ones who go to EU clubs?"

Currently, the situation is different, and it's not just about money anymore, but because the best players are in Europe. Even if the MLS paid more than European teams, the average American player wouldn't refuse an offer from Chelsea to play in the Premier League, for example. Competitiveness > money. That's why few players go to China, despite them paying on average much more than European teams.

"How do Brazilians win so many club trophies in EU?"

I didn't understand that point, the Brazilian goes to any team aiming for titles... He can be bad and still win a Champions League, the quality of a single player doesn't define the result.

"Why cant u accept the fact that EU is not xenophobic enough to accept BR players and train them and give them money?"

It's not like Europe is doing us a favor by hiring someone. They buy our players because in Brazil we have a good crop for any position on the field, and so they seek to have better results in their respective leagues. Brazilian players accept because most of the time the salary is satisfactory and they will have chances to play against the bests. It's a two-way street, everyone wins.

"There are people who enjoy/support stuff outside of their national/cultural/racial boundaries"

You can support it as much as you want, but many can't admit that they do it because they have no other choice.

#124

ambo69

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man is incapable of answering the quesion

#134

Astroman77

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True, how sad

#129

kskm

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20 years of drought is an exaggeration - there have been only 5 world cups in these 20 years and the fact that in these 20 years, BR players have moved to EU clubs cannot be held as a causation of their supposed drought. There could be several other reasons why - including the fact that other teams/nations have developed in the game. England hasnt won the World Cup in so many years - not because their players were playing in EPL or any other league. Simple fact that BR players are playing with the best (as u said) + winning titles for clubs shows there hasnt been any drop in their talent by moving to these clubs so holding that as a reason for BR not winning a WC makes 0 sense. Correlation =/= Causation.
Chinese teams are not competing for fresh talent. There is example of your very own Neymar going to PSG over Barcelona or even other EPL teams. Do you think French league is more competitive than La Liga or even EPL? So your argument of competitiveness > money is not true for all cases. It depends from player to player.
"EU supports other countries because no choice" "BR players play in EU because of better opportunities+money" - Do u not see the irony and bias in your statements? Using your logic can one not say that BR footballers have no choice to play in BR leagues because they are broke and cannot retain top tier talent? Its the same as saying "oh u learn English because Portuguese sucks no opportunities" "Oh u prob just play video games from American companies like Riot and Valve cause BR companies suck" "Oh u prob watch Hollywood movies cause BR movies suck" "Oh u prob drive a jap/eu/usa car cause BR autmobile sucks" ---- this is xenophobia and self praising of ur own nation not understanding that the world is diverse and interconnected and everyone benefits from every country.

#133

Astroman77

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These are just facts: Brazil's most successful period was when Brazilian players only played in Brazilian leagues. It was the strongest league and we grew based on our own parameters. There is no disputing that. At that time, Brazilian football was unparalleled and unique. Dribbles that no one knew (pedalada, elastico, carretilha), plays that no one knew and tactical formations that no one knew. There was no one with a similar playing style to ours precisely because our football was not exported and no one had any idea how to combat it - It was like Korea in LoL before Koreans started to be exported to strengthen other leagues. Over time, the first European clubs began to import the "joga bonito". The level of world football began to be equalized and that's when we suffered for 24 years without winning a World Cup (the longest period, in fact) - between 1970 and 1994. We managed to become champions again in 1994 and 2002 due to a generation in which Brazil simply had stars in every position on the field. A dream team 5.0. Losing with the players we had at that time would be unimaginable... There is a very clear causality relationship through the facts narrated above.

I won't dwell on this, it's just reality: most players choose competitiveness over money. That's why when CR7 chose to play in a league in the Middle East, he was heavily criticized. Regarding the French league: not even the French care about this league. Neymar and Messi joined PSG to win the Champions League... 20 million more or less doesn't make a difference for these guys, they're already wealthy enough.

Here I think you got confused: when I talk about supporting EU teams out of lack of choice, I meant that a German, for example, doesn't have the option to support a German esports team simply because that team doesn't exist. They have no choice - they either support teams from EMEA (their continent/region) or they don't support anyone. A Brazilian player can play wherever they want but that won't necessarily attract Brazilian fans to their respective team. From there, you mixed in an opinion I gave about e-sports (in the previous post) with the Europe-Brazil relationship in football, so I don't need to answer something confusing...

#139

kskm

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ur neither convincing nor confusing anyone with ur delusional hyper-jingoistic takes. in ur first paragraph, you conveniently talk about how BR exports resulted in an exposure to their playing style and create "equalized" football without acknowledging the fact that said BR talent also benefited from developed training facilities and tactics being developed in EU. Not to mention, BR clubs making money off their sales. Neither do u mention how it is the failure of BR clubs to retain their talent and these trade secrets of football but somehow it is the fault of EU for not being xenophobic and accepting BR talents into their much advanced training facilities and provide extravagant life only for them to return to BR and represent BR in international competitions. yours are not facts, just convenient stories to support ur narrative of BR vs the world and how everyone has connived to deny u a WC for 20 years except ur own faults.

again ur wrong in second paragraph. messi didnt leave barca for champions league there was more to it. there is no competitiveness angle to choosing PSG for Neymar either, he couldve easily chosen more competitive environment. cr7 is 38 and has 5? champion leagues so yh he prioritized money aswell.

again there is nothing convincing or confusing about this hyper-jingoistic take of urs. i have probably visited more countries and experienced cultures to tell u that none of what u are saying is alien to me - i know and i've seen people with such beliefs - it is usually propagated by corrupt politicians in their countries which makes them believe their country is special and everyone is against them. u made a snide remark basically saying "hey EU u guys just support continent cause no country is able to provide 5 individual players who can rep u like LOUD could with BR hahaha" but as i mentioned most countries in EU can hit back at u in 100 areas where there is no BR representation and in valorant/cs as per the population ratio if u have 5 good players compared to 2 or 3 from Germany or Spain - thats not even a bad ratio to be clowning about - u have 5 times their individual populations.

#141

Astroman77

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The Brazilian didn't benefit from European training facilities because they weren't models or pioneers in anything related to football. Football wasn't developed enough to possess technologies capable of providing any competitive advantage. You just made a mistaken statement here. "Brazilian clubs made money from selling players" - OBVIOUS? That doesn't change anything, I don't even know what your point was here. I don't know what your problem with reading comprehension is, but in none of my previous comments did I imply that it's "Europe's fault" or that it's "Brazil vs. the world". That's just in your head and has nothing to do with the points we're arguing. I mentioned the 20 years without titles (just like the first 3 World Cups) just to reinforce that playing in Europe isn't a quality benchmark, supporting the evidence that our best time was when Brazilians played in Brazilian leagues - a coincidence. I don't need to summarize this again, right? Just read the first point of my previous comment, It's very clear. You're very confusing when trying to convey your ideas and you confuse sentiment with rationality.

Here you are mistaken again. Source: https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12378621/lionel-messi-reveals-he-chose-to-join-paris-saint-germain-in-order-to-win-fifth-champions-league Messi and Neymar went to PSG to win the Champions League. At the time it was a big challenge and they (PSG management) were building a competitive team to try to win the Champions League for the first time. An ambitious project. Obviously, CR7 chose to play in the Middle East for money, and I didn't even question that. If you read what I wrote earlier carefully, you wouldn't have tried to refute me with this senseless argument. What I said was - when CR7 chose money, he was heavily criticized. Why was he criticized? Remember? Exactly, because there is low competitiveness and little visibility in the championships there. Athletes PRIORITIZE competitiveness. Depending on the circumstances, it MAY BE that he chooses money and goes to play, I don't know, in China.

Here I can conclude by saying that personal experiences do not serve as a scientific parameter or a ground on which you will base your absolute truths and misconceptions. It only takes one person who has gone through and experienced the same things as you and brings an opinion completely contrary to yours for your argument to completely lose its validity. Again, I have nothing to argue here due to a lack of useful information.

#143

kskm

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Delusional if you think Brazilians did not benefit from EU clubs - you yourself said they are more competitive - who gets the credit for developing and maintaining that competitiveness in the scene? Is it not the EU clubs? Go compare the budget of any big EU club with any BR club for training, physical therapy, medical treatments, food and nutrition. If you think any random ass person without proper coaching, training, nutrition and facilities can become the next Ronaldo then you are delusional beyond measure. It is not just the technique of playing football and yes EU did develop their own tactics and techniques in football too which have won them several trophies - things which Brazilians benefitted from and took them back to their country. It is a 2 way street and the fact EU appreciates talent irrespective of nationality and doesn't shun BR players saying why would we support players outside of our country is appreciable - but I guess you cannot understand as u cant even stand to applaud EU victory over ur beloved BR - its called sportsmanship. I think in the whole deal - BR benefits from this deal more than EU does. BR clubs make money by selling players but they cant use that money to retain and make their clubs as good as EU clubs? Isnt that a failure of BR clubs and Brazilians in general? You say no EU country has 5 valo players to support their country so they are forced to support EU in general - can i say that no Brazilian club inspite of having 5x population and craze behind football can create and sustain a club that can stand up to big EU clubs? Im sure most of you would skip ur local teams match to watch UEFA champions league final - an European tournament.

In the link you gave me, it clearly says Messi's contract couldnt be fullfilled at Barca because of their financial situation at the time. So he didnt just leave for CL - there is an added and important reason that he could not continue at Barca and btw he is in talks to go back to Barca. It just says PSG gave him the best deal where he has the chance to win his 5TH CL - thats not even the main reason why. You in your first statement said all players prioritize competitiveness over money - which I refuted with Ronaldo and Neymar's example. There are several such examples of players going to clubs with bigger money irrespective of how competitive the environment would be - ofcourse none of them would admit and say we went for the bag - you can google for more such players. You simply made a generalized statement saying everyone prefers competitive > money which is not true. Nobody cares if Ronaldo got criticized for the move - the fact he took the decision is reason enough to refute ur claim of comp>money.

Hyper - jingoism is sold by politicians across the globe. In America, these idiots cry "buy american, make america great again" I dont wanna get into polit*cs here but these people live the most miserable lives who have nothing to show for themselves so they hide behind the flag. This jingoism is saddest in poorer and underdeveloped nations like Brazil because it is sold by corrupt politicians who will turn each and every situation and make it about the country. People eat this shit up and never question their own country or leaders and get worked up trying to defend their country online. You are a victim here - next time you get up and ask rich EU countries why they dont have 5 valorant players to cheer for - ask Brazilian clubs why cant we retain BR talent and make EU guys come play for us? Why cant we buy optic players or fnatic players.. how come Sacy and pancada leave to go to US? these questions are uncomfortable but truly patriotic - these questions benefit Brazil more than your original question would ever benefit Brazil. i have nothing else to say to you, have a good rest of ur life. sorry if i hurt u.

#155

Astroman77

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As I said before 'Football wasn’t developed enough to possess technologies capable of providing any competitive advantage'. This is not an opinion. The football technologies used by the wealthiest European clubs (currently) did not exist in the past. In purely structural matters, everything was level. You confuse verb tenses or manipulate them in a way that is convenient for you to think you are refuting something beyond ghosts in your mind. With globalization and football development, ways of gaining advantages on the field began to emerge (here the roles of clubs in athlete formation come in) beyond purely individual and collective skills. "Who gets the credit for developing and maintaining that competitiveness in the scene? Is it not the EU clubs?" Just to clarify, according to IFFHS, the strongest league in the world is the Brazilian one: (https://www.iffhs.com/posts/2483). Answering your question: competitiveness is maintained because the best players are there, and the best (the vast majority) are imported from other regions. The fairest credit we can give to European clubs is that they have enough money to buy players from anywhere in the world to keep their league always at a high level. The MLS, for example, has structure but lacks competitiveness. No player aspires to play in the American league because it is very weak. And it is weak because it does not have the best players. The club's structure is just a drop in the ocean. As for Brazilian clubs: as you yourself say, it is a two-way street - we contribute to the evolution and maintenance of European football by exporting our best players while Brazilian clubs benefit by earning billions per year with player transfers. The biggest Brazilian clubs are not behind the European average when it comes to training centers, food, structure, etc. I don't know where you got this completely wrong idea. It is a fact that European giants, like Real Madrid, have a unique quality, but they have a high standard even for most other clubs in their league. To finish this part - Flamengo, for example, one of the richest teams in Brazil, in 2022 was the 18th club with the highest payroll in the world. (https://www.uol.com.br/esporte/futebol/colunas/rafael-reis/2022/08/26/fla-tem-a-18-maior-folha-salarial-do-mundo-4-brasileiros-estao-no-top-50.htm) Not to mention that there are clubs managed as if they were companies (SAF), where they manage to have a large net annual income enough to provide an excellent quality structure. (https://www.scielo.br/j/rac/a/qCtMycKvdT7rSq5cgF3sPHM/)
"can i say that no Brazilian club inspite of having 5x population and craze behind football can create and sustain a club that can stand up to big EU clubs?"
With this question, you show again your total lack of knowledge about the subject. The only way we can know if the best Brazilian club currently is better than the best European club currently is through the Club World Cup that takes place every year. Well, Brazil has already won this championship TEN times, against giants like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Liverpool, Milan, Manchester, among others. We are only behind Spain, which has won 12 times. And this is largely due to Real Madrid and their crop of good players. (https://ge.globo.com/futebol/mundial-de-clubes/noticia/2023/02/11/mundial-de-clubes-lista-completa-de-campeoes-e-finais.ghtml)

Football players are competitive athletes by nature and often prioritize the pursuit of victory and personal success over other considerations, including higher salaries. For these players, competition is the essence of sport, and the pursuit of victory is a powerful motivation. Many players choose to play for teams that offer the opportunity to compete at a high level, even if it means earning less money than they could elsewhere. As I mentioned before, athletes PRIORITIZE competitiveness and depending on the circumstances, they may opt for money. Cristiano Ronaldo is 38 years old, nearing retirement and no longer has the same stamina as he did when he was younger. His choices are limited, so deciding to play for a less competitive club that offers more money is a circumstance that would not have been taken into consideration when he was 25 years old and one of the best in the world. At that time, even if he received a billionaire offer to play in the Middle East with a higher salary than he was receiving, he would certainly prioritize Real Madrid to continue playing in Europe because he was at his peak and knew that the competitiveness of playing in a high-level league spoke louder than the best salaries. In summary: CR7 "choosing money" is a circumstance of events that happened and led him to make that decision. This exception was included in the argumentation of the previous post. After all, I am not crazy enough to deny that many opt for money. Messi wanting to return to Barcelona and earn less than he does at PSG is further irrefutable proof that money has no weight on the athlete's decision. The PSG project failed. They hired several top players and still failed to achieve their goal of becoming champions of the Champions League.

Again here, you use personal experiences and particular impressions to express an opinion as if it were an absolute truth or deserving of some credit. Politics are based on narratives, not truths/lies. Whoever is in power holds the current narrative. I thought you knew that. When you talk about nationalism, you demonstrate again that you don't understand anything about what you're talking about. Just to clarify: Nationalism is a political ideology that defends national identity as something primordial and prioritizes the interests of the nation over individual interests or those of other nations. There are people who do not identify with this ideology and who may have different political views. It has nothing to do with patriotism, which is basically love and loyalty to the homeland, respect for the country, etc. Patriotism does not necessarily involve a belief and is the closest thing you can correlate with Brazilian e-sports fans. Nothing to do with Brazilian politics and the nationalism 'sold' by other countries. When you state that "Brazilian teams don't buy European players," you show again how ignorant you are and speak whatever comes to mind, without any foundation. FURIA has a team with American players, European players in various games. A Brazilian organization. If you want to follow them closely, just go to FURIA's English Twitter: (https://twitter.com/FURIA_USA) One of the best Valorant coaches was bought by Loud, and he is... American. I hope I have answered everything and clarified the topics.

#192

kskm

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bro wrote a book and yet missed to address everything - just pasting nonsense articles, cherry picking facts to build a narrative - you are only fooling yourself.

its fact not opinion : any BR player would jump to go to EU because its better. EU doesnt discriminate so they allow talent from anywhere and get behind them and support them - it doesnt matter their nationality or language or race or color of skin. BR has been a HUGE beneficiary of this benevolence. Based on how BR crowds act in esports it seems they are incapable of basic sportsmanship.
second paragraph filled with ur own opinion - u dont speak for any player - they decide if they wanna play for money or competitiveness and they are free to chose either. plenty of examples of people who chose either.
thats a chat gpt ass paragraph defining terms that u probably dont know anything about. Your original question reeks of jingoism and self praise. Here are some questions which i asked earlier : do u just drive jap/eu/usa cars cause BR cars suck? do u just use smartphones made in China cause BR phones suck? do u just play games made by American/Chinese video game companies like Riot and Valve cause BR cant make video games? omg it must be such a bad feeling for not having so many good things which have a BR tag on it that u have to support foreign shit!!! - Now this might seem like "facts" to you but these are snide remarks to show how other regions are superior to BR in 10000s of other areas where u are "forced" to support foreign stuff. Every country supports foreign shit to an extent and in a world that is interconnected you cannot have everything available in a single country. Pointing it out like u have in this thread only makes u an asshole.

#194

Astroman77

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I provided sources to be able to refute your arguments, which were purely based on your own imagination. That's how you argue, not just by typing nonsense like you do, without pointing out any data or proof of what you say. It's important to emphasize that the Brazilian league is the strongest in the world, as this already destroys half of your convictions from the previous post. It's also important to corroborate this by showing that one of the richest clubs in Brazil (Flamengo) has a higher payroll than the average European clubs, so you can't talk the shit you talked about structure, food, routines, etc. I also mentioned that there are clubs that are exceptional even by European standards, such as Real Madrid. The clubs as businesses and their strength in national football. And I refuted your total ignorance about your claim that "we don't have clubs to face the giants of Europe," linking a table with victories by countries in the Club World Cup - here I really got discouraged, as I realized I was talking to a complete layman on the subject (what a surprise).

Brazil has also been very benevolent and charitable (what a wonderful argument, I can use it too) by lending its best athletes to European clubs, thus increasing the level and competitiveness of the championship - as previously stated - it's no use having structure without having the best, if you want to be minimally relevant and have a strong league (whether in sports or e-sports). Poor sportsmanship is a matter of opinion and perspective. Each person has a different opinion and points out things that bother them, which vary from person to person. Until a scientific study is done on this, personal experience cannot be used to corroborate something as an absolute truth. Learn that.

In the second paragraph, I simply narrated events and gave a few opinions, such as when I mentioned CR7 and what he would do at 25 years old if he received a astronomical offer to leave Real Madrid and go to a less competitive league. Regarding Messi, it wasn't an opinion, the link to the article pointing to his desire to win the 5th Champions League (evidence of seeking competitiveness and challenge) is further back.

I didn't say anything beyond mentioning the difference between an ideology and a sentiment. You use the word "jingoism" in a context where it makes no sense. So it's necessary for you to research for yourself the difference between nationalism and patriotism until these concepts crystalize in your mind. I won't explain it again.

I actually forgot to answer those questions (I knew I had forgotten something). Here comes something you might have studied in high school: Protectionism. Which has nothing to do with rooting for EMEA teams because there are no national teams to support. Brazil is not a completely protectionist country, so we have a huge variety of options where we can choose both national and international companies in any sector. There are alternatives. If I only chose national items, your argument would make a little more sense and you could link it to my thoughts on EMEA fans and their team compositions. These are diametrically opposite cases. On the one hand, I contest that supporting five foreigners is forced - due to a lack of options. On the other hand, I have a huge variety of options and can switch between them - it's not forced. Although these are completely horrible examples, they make no sense at all.

#203

kskm

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you did not refute a single argument, as i previously mentioned u are just cherry picking articles and googling stuff to see what fits ur narrative. the org that ranks BR higher is no authority on the subject, there are several other orgs which did their study and ranked BR orgs below EU clubs thus ur 1 article does not refute shit. the simple fact that most BR players will sell their families to play in EU shows which is better and the complete credit goes to EU for being able to maintain that credibility. No one serious would enter and play for a BR club. the whole deal is skewed and benefits BR more than EU as players like Neymar earn their living in EU and go and invest back in BR. Also funny how u even mention Flamengo is 18th as if that makes any sense - there are other things in that article that u could've picked up like "Flamengo spends 1 mil more than Aston Villa" "There are only 3 BR clubs in top 50" "BR has 5x population of every EU country but they dont have money to spend in the sport they are crazy about" -- see classic example of u cherry picking shit to build a narrative but its a failed attempt as I said - you are fooling no one but yourself. Acting as if you are presenting facts and not using personal experience to build an argument is just a farce, you cannot seriously believe what you are typing. To give a better perspective, Cricket is a game which is crazy amongst British colonies - guess which country has the highest paying cricket clubs? Its not England or Australia or any other developed country - but its India followed by Pakistan - two underdeveloped countries run the sport they are crazy about - something BR can learn about. (OMG how does an American know this? Nationality has nothing to do with knowledge)

There is no benevolence from BR - the players dont seek a permission from their government or fanatic jingoists like you before they move out and seek better opportunities in EU. Here EU provides them with the respect they deserve and BR just lets it happen cause they earn some money out of it. It is EU that provides these guys with the respect and facilities - nobody would care if all the BR folks just sit home and play in their own leagues. The world will not miss a thing. Again the only reason EU clubs reach out to them is because they are not xenophobic and wish to nurture, train and THEN use the talent available - worldwide. These are facts not opinions.

there is nothing new here, i already said multiple times it is not written in stone that every player will seek out for competitiveness over money.
Jingoism is the perfect word to describe to ur original post - it reeks of some sort of self-congratulatory message to urself and fellow BR for producing 5 players compared to 2 or 3 by Spain or Germany when u have 5x their population. You have absolutely no clue what you are yapping about and it is feeling like I am talking to an AI at this point. I am well aware of every word that I have used and definitely have a better understanding of those words than you.

LMFAO You have absolutely no fucking idea. How can you be a Brazilian and not know that BR has always been traditionally protectionist state - it levies heavy taxes on goods produced elsewhere and constantly asks companies like the Automobile ones to setup their factories locally. One good example is how iphones cost 50% more in BR compared to US - yet you dont have a single company which can compete with Apple - an American company. I am sure everyone who is rich in BR just uses an iphone. BR actively participates in protectionist policies when it comes to trade but still fails to produce enough industries to rival international competition - unlike countries like China which actually has solid alternatives. You are forced to support a variety of FOREIGN services like Valve, Riot Games, Apple, Google, Microsoft and 100000s of other areas because you DONT have a LOCAL OPTION. A chinese guy can come upto u and say "oh u just use Google an American service because u dont have something like Baido - chinese app developed by CN?" - that question is not sincere - it is self congratulatory and reeks of arrogance and fails to understand that the world is dependent and supporting foreign stuff is inevitable. AGAIN - Having 5X the population of single EU states and only 5-6 more serious valorant players than them is not even something to be proud of.

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