Are agents/comps more important than we think?

#1

CountryBoyUwU

e.g

sova was only played once by FPX, 0 times by PRX this whole event.

PRX arguably played a worse comp vs FPX (not taking anything away) and lost, to complement, this was the first time PRX shown Breeze and FPX had no way of possibly knowing what comp/micro PRX would do, but in the late game, they figured out what to do. Is this a testament to a comp diff or a style diff?

Imo we + coaches (in my humble opinion) place so little importance on comp diffs in this game, and I think it can make or break a team just like that. And less importance should be placed on the perceived ‘quality’ of teams if you know the opposing team can play the comp to a good potential.

Imo meta picks are way more valuable than a ‘comfort pick’ for instance, see this anecdote from ardiis:

Ardiis recently said in a press conference after the DRX game: he describes that he begrudgingly picked jett after D00mbr0s and ANGE1 begged him to pick jett, on ascent vs DRX, knowing fully well that ardiis hated playing the new jett: https://youtube.com/watch?v=0v2ZDJcLUng&t=29m31s
They clearly knew the importance of comp diffing DRX on ascent, since ardiis went on to top frag and rack up 9-2 fk/fd

You could argue this was a mental diff, but I don’t think it’s as simple as this. FPX had a clear gameplan in mind and knew how to diff DRX perfectly, and play to their strengths . This is what makes FPX so dominant, they are able to mix and match comps so easily and teams finally need to realise that: one comp does not fit all

FPX have perfected the art of molding around their opponents, yet still being flexible, one way you could describe them, is ditto from Pokémon.

I think that more games need to be approached by the community with a simpler mindset. whether a comp can diff the other comp or not, and base their opinion from there. Obviously there are more intricacies to be ironed out, but sometimes it’s just as simple as, comp diff, and that’s all there is to it imho.

Tldr : when you want to know why a team lost, just look at their comp and conclude that it was due to a comp diff BEFORE coming to any other conclusion. If you feel it’s not due to this, you can look at other factors.

#2

Primion

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based on team playstyle and aim
like korea most util usage

#3

KatZ

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ditto from Pokémon

I like this comparison

#4

CountryBoyUwU

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Yo mfs. Give me feedback or arguments so I know I’m not talking out of my ass

#5

Primion

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u talking out of ur ass ^_^

#6

DaDoar

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Your post is very smart and I think there is a big discussion to be had, FPX really showed how important team comps really are in countering the opponents rather than always going for comfort picks, thats because ANGE1 operates FPX with a CSGO mentality(likew FNS does) in that players aren't categorized by the roles that Valorant uses(Duelist, Sentinel, Initiator, etc.) but instead he makes his players play roles that are more akin to the roles tyou'd see in CSGO, completely ignoring the agent choice, his agent choices are always tailored made around what utility he wants, not what utility his players want, Im gonna make a big ass wall text very soon

#7

DaDoar

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what I mean by CSGO roles, is that ANGE1 makes his players play in positions they are comfortable, regardless of agent, because he values the player individual skills more than the agent skills, he only values agents for what interactions they can have with the map(see how he always tries to fit Kay/0 in the comp, often giving up Raze and Chamber, zyppan and ardiis "comfort" picks, cause he values kay/0 utility more than comfort utility, he trusts ardiis and zyppan gun skill so much he knopws they can find value even without tailor made util), if you look at their vods you can see how on T side you always have

ANGE1 playing aggressive early for info(like most CSGO igls do)
Zyppan is always entering in first, be it on RaZe or Kay/0
Ardiis is always second into the site unless he has an AWP(Classic Entry/second entry like in CS)
SUYGETSU always looks for late pinches on the site or anti-flank
Shao is always last into site and plays safe for clutches and trades(Think of him like Coldzera in FalleN system)

By taking back the SK Gaming analogy to Cs(which works really well) you can say that
Ardiis is FalleN
Shao is Coldzera
Suygetsu is Fer
Zyppan is TACO
ANGE1 is fnx/Boltz

By splitting roles this way, the players always know what they have to do despite playing a different agent, sometimes they play different agents on the same map(Look at Zyppan playing both KAy/0 and Skye on breeze during this event or Shao playing Fade and Astra on Split) this lets them have a lot of flexibility in anti stratting with agent picks and I think that was the real push that got FPX the dub, other than their amazing mechanics(which should be expected by a team that iams to the top)

#8

HaSanity

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One big point you bring up is about fundamentals, you can see just how you described it, FPX are very well drilling into the foundation of how they play, that they can potentially play any comp to their advantage. It’s all simple once you have the cemented roles in place. The only reason I think they are able to do this, is due to their insanely high player skill. If you look at their adr, it’s tightly bunched together except for ANGE1. : https://ibb.co/Qm2Wf2N. It’s almost beautiful since it perfectly describes their team-play(the only difference being KAST since there needs to be a push-pull of zyppan and ardiis being spearheads and shao and suy playing back, again, perfectly described)(they improved from challengers but the stats were similar: https://ibb.co/XVNydkV) . Clearly they are the first team to be disciplined enough like this, and for the first time, I am actually confident that these guys could pull a back to back title.

This kind of foundation is to die for and I’m so excited of how flexible they can become with their comps, Potentially playing any comp that they choose, depending on their opponent. atm, I feel like FPX have this down to a ‘T’ and it’s going to take quite a while for teams to break down their foundations and even try and implement this kind of composition in their own game.

#9

DaDoar

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couldn't have said it any better, the only other team that plays such a fundamentals heavy game is imo Optic, although they have a different way of going about it that is probably why they ended up falling to FPX and PRX, FPX is very well drilled in their fundamentals making them able to play any agent in their role, while Optic went into the "Let's adapt the agents to the perfect role for our players", in Optic case the roles are

Victor - Hard Entry
Yay - Aggressive Operator(yay picks up the OP way more often than ardiis, even on T side) and rarely second man in
Crashies - Second Man in
FNS - Passive rifle that waits executes and then enters third
Marved - Late entry
Their system reminds me more of Astralis than SK since their clutch player is on the lurk(Marved/xyp9x) and they dont look for info as aggresively, relying mostly on the entry to get the info and then work off that.

The biggest difference is, as I said, that instead of playing agents In Spite of the role, they try to look for as much synergy as possible, which is why they were one of the first teams to make Neon work, as she fits Victor super sacrificial role very well, or the reason why they have been moving crashies away from info gatherers like SOva and into Flashers like Kay/0 and Skye.
I think that this kind of system is why Optic have been very consistent on LAN and domestically, as many pros said on stream(i remember WARDELL saying this) FNS is the only igl in NA that plays like its CS and its why he's so good.

While this system is great, I think that most teams are starting to catch up and play very similar to Optic(PRX actually does implement a very similar system, albeit with different roles, but if you look at their comps and how they play, you can see the players are always following a certain script, with Jingg entrying first, even on Sage, with utility from d4v4i and benkai to suypport him while f0rsaken enters second trying to look for off timings on his yoru/neon picks) valorant is definetely evolving in the optic direction, but Im sure that FPX way of playing is really the next step of the evolution, where players stop fossilizing on agent picks and start to become more and more flexible in the agent selection while maintaining their role, leading to the best possible comps for the team they play against.

#10

DoubleWideSurpriseYeah