they need to add a 6th man just to do their content creation then give them a single match as payment
| Country: | United States |
| Registered: | January 17, 2021 |
| Last post: | April 24, 2024 at 10:41 PM |
| Posts: | 448 |
they need to add a 6th man just to do their content creation then give them a single match as payment
???? how are you getting to that idea, cuz they tried shit in the only tourney left before season??? they played decent at redbull with curry sub, and on top of that they're rebuilding all that chem again + the 2 new players and that hadn't had much time yet. Trust the cat eared lord and savior vanity.
that said I don't think firepower is what will determine the actual frontrunners this season. its gonna be a lil weird but hopefully exciting
actually a godsend having their vods LMAO. plus theyre such a good team they just forget their own gameplans(umbrella term) in chaotic rounds sometimes
god i hope to get good enough to have one of these made about me one day
but i can't find chaos, like the other great thing about yoru is the ult which i guess gets a bit of chaos?
I would love a facecam reaction from u of a yoru flash, decoy, fake tp, and 2 initiators worth of util coming at you during a site exec
nah your responses are what i was hoping to get as far as a league perspective in this thread. It's just better for the thread if I also defend my point a bit
any team that has bind, lotus, and split as a massive strength in their map pool
i said is thrown like not functions like, as in its a brim stim
then im wrong, and you have a good point, not my expertise
Deadlock:
Things won't affect the storylines in league as much bc whatever changes are made or champs put into meta pick status, the players capability of expressing that isnt FUNDAMENTALLY affected in a way that that single comparison fits for val.
yes, different champs just like agents enable different pop off potential, but what you are PHYSICALLY CAPABLE OF on chamber is not the same as sage, or even jett. TTK matters a lot in a specific topic like this. There's no champ in league that will direct 1v5 like prime chamber could without people really even getting to aim back, u could prefire but that deag pullout is insane.
i could just be biased here
2 parts in my response to this after saying out right, yes his direct solo entry is pretty weak.
1, i dont think theres a good comprehension of how often you REALLY need that jett dash into smoke combo in order to get into a site. Raze is the most popular duelist rn and she literally just flies at people with a flash(rip skye raze combo). On top of that anyway u have options with fake smokes on astra, teammate utility in general-you're really not dry-dashing at peoples face very often just bc u have a smoke and u might live long enough to get ur gun out.
2, im not sure you understood the explanation of why he doesnt work in plug and play.
if you look at FNATIC or LOUD, their duelist is used as a macro tool
I am saying yoru is an incredibly inconsistent macro tool for what you would traditionally use a jett/chamber awp for. BUT, he has a fucking genuinely unexplainable amount of potential value with the rest of his kit. He singlehandedly counters everything about kj. He is on the other bombsite within a singular second. He can be an unkillable drone for 12 seconds. He can flash for himself and teammates. He enables fake info, and honestly just fakes in general. He can find viper in her ult, he can throw util from his ult in kayo ult, he can negate a kj ult clearing space by tping back in.
Ascent is kind of a prime example of why I think a lot of their decision making is based around excitement. We all consider the agent pick meta stale as can be for the map, but its really not BORING you know? At top level its usually a lot of exciting first picks or explosive chaotic teamfights.
I still think its up next as far as reworks but theres a reason that map has had ACTUALLY nothing change.
I think the consistency of skill expression in val is not the same as League tho. Purely aim wise, its very hard to just universally aim diff starting at immortal. U cant full int and run thru ranked games consistently dropping 40, 1 part is the strength of util another is how hard it can be to wide swing a disadvantaged fight.
Most peoples' immediate reaction to that is that pro players run through ranked players on [agent] to radiant runs all the time. That's not what I'm addressing. I'm addressing the fact that, to quote a franchise player I was talking to earlier, "demon1 can lose an aim duel to an immortal 1." (talking about the capability not the liklihood) It really isnt a thing in other esports.
Now to me, the real skill expression rn is in movement style ON TOP OF your aim, knowing exactly how to peek things was something I got very good at in cs and it got me to fpl/mdl-and yet i wouldnt even look ok compared to a top pro. We aren't at a point that pros can consistently judge EXACTLY how to peek for every fight. That is where you see pros like something, Yay on chamber, Derke ish-more alfajaer, thats where they farm. But if they do it incorrectly, the other person has to miss for them to win.
The OG jett and Prime Chamber meta both were drastically longer im pretty sure but as far as business strategy goes-
If this wasn't the case then there would've been a meta change last year before Masters or Champs, two of the biggest events the game can offer, to make up a meta that's priorities individual skill more to make it more exciting or smth.
That would be atrocious optics. Teams don't have time to build a storyline of untouchable perfection but they have time to build a storyline people can follow. Throwing massive changes that nuke those storylines would never happen mid-season like this unless that something was somehow more detrimental to the game
edit: also the purpose of this post is that they used what happened with league as a series of events to prevent not copy. League is what it is now, theres not really an opportunity to change it. Also their acad system is an example of something they said "nope. never again" bc players get trapped in league and never get to move up
I was a cypher main for ages and i was expecting to play it again some this quali but its been really rough trying to find things that work best for my vision/team that dont get fucked by cypher rn
There will be fluke's but at the same time that will happen due to the change in what skills/capabilities reward a team with that win consistently.
We simply don't have enough agents that even partially have fallback replacements. Thats the big thing with this skye change rn
as far as the franchise part, having a vision doesn't mean that EVERY aspect of their business model for the esport also gets put on hold until it gets to where they want it. That also doesn't mean the franchising aspect of the game isn't hurting that goal, but I have trouble seeing the game randomly switch to a franchise model 5 years in when they already know thats the plan.
Exactly. I think if you ask any pro what agent is the most overpowered(at least on paper), I would expect almost unanimously to hear "Yoru"
The reason he isnt seen much in pro play is bc the current meta, if you look at FNATIC or LOUD, their duelist is used as a macro tool A LOT, set them up and push them into him or punish them by being stacked. Yoru is inherently a creative-"I have to make decisions on the fly" agent which he has every tool he needs to do that well, but its a lot less plug and play which means theres a ton of work involved to have him succeed
I genuinely ran out of space in the op so im using the 2nd comment as that Tldr post
TL;dr
Riot wants this game to maintain excitement and diversity. Historically a lot of the updates and changes have kinda centered around that, once we comprehend that they can only do so much with the current agents available in the game, and that has applied differently to each era of the game. This update to skye and vct matches was not made to strengthen the current scene it was made to trim the fat before they give us a system that has better long term viability(hopefully that 2nd part is true).
This is all my own impression of many decisions coming out of Riot, no set timeline here I'm not a private investigator I have to do my own prep for qualifiers with these changes. This is a long one so buckle up and get a coffee. Before any opinions are said I want to say that nothing I feel that I am pointing out means I agree with how things are done.
Before any opinions are said I want to say that nothing I feel that I am pointing out means I agree with how things are done.
I do not play LoL, but I know a lot of people that do, and I know a few that have played it for a long time and followed their scene for a long time. In the conversations I have had with them I have gotten the idea that LoL has a problem. League has tons of agents, but to my understanding ~30 champs of 167 current champs available are actually played in pro play consistently. People don't try things (anymore?). Riot has made it kinda obvious they don't want Valorant to take that route.
There was a change that has been long since forgotten when the game was new that sounds RIDICULOUS today with current/coming metas. We're talking pre kayo release even, tbh im not sure how long ago it was-but the game was kinda boring. People were just running at eachother, there wasnt much util in the game yet, and fights were just kinda boring coinflips sometimes. OG Jett with og knives dash everything, got farmed by cypher trips. 1 insane patch later and Jett dash broke cypher trips. In today's state of the game that is WILD.
"miniature ur smoking something what the hell does this have to do with skye and some master plan?"
Jett was the most exciting agent to both watch and play back then, this was the beginning of the game as an esport. Even today, Jett is the posterchild of Valorant and she really isnt that great anymore, especially not comparably to back then.
If meta did not revolve around insane Jett plays and went to more calculated counterstrike-style defaults, we would not have the same valorant we have today. The game would not have this level of popularity.
Valorant has EXPLODED forward with each OP agent that has been in the game because the gameplay tends to be exciting to watch. Watching seoldam's insane knife clips back when right clicks refilled and had basically no reload/cooldown, something about it felt magical, even if we all accepted it was a little bit silly. That evolved into watching Yay become the most dominant player in the game, every team he played against had multiple calls a game that were just to run away from him. The guy was a BEAST on the agent. Fundamentally great for marketing the game bc what we got to see was simple for casual players to understand, but complex enough for better players/teams to have a skill gap at using it.
"Huh, I guess all that is true, but where are we going with this? We don't have either of those anymore so what do they even matter?"
What I want to ask everyone(not really rhetorical),
I would argue Astra had more impact on meta than any other agent in an isolated setting and its really not even close. Astra enabled EVERYTHING and there was nothing you could do about it. Hell, she started off being able to use stars off barrier dropping, you would physically not be able to take space off barrier bc it would be sucked and combo'd immediately. We don't ever talk about the fact she was the best controller the game has ever seen and hopefully ever will.
Chamber was still broken, everything revolved around him-he was the center of the universe-nobody can say otherwise. However, we also had prime duelist kayo, insane flashes, perfect utility to deal with opposing chambers, and soon enough we also had fade which did the same. If Prime Chamber was Michael Jordan, he had the same Bulls lineup that enabled that greatness to be seen.
"miniature im getting bored. I care but get to a point pls holy shit."
The pieces start to make a clearer picture with that last idea; Chamber was great but man was that support cast also extremely consistent across maps. Hell, even fracture had people try to forgo breach to setup/counter chamber better(yes im aware there were comps that worked blah blah, it was extremely hard). This is where that concept about LoL champ diversity comes up. League is a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way ahead of us as far as development, but we almost have as many agents in our game as their pro play actually sees.
Riot. Does. Not. Want. That. For. Valorant.
"Says you noob you're not even a real pro, why would I take your word on anything?"
If chamber was truly the only agent that was "dominating/ruining meta" back then, why has every single agent that supported him been dramatically nerfed(at least to their primary function during that meta, kayo still used but its diff now). Astra's gone, Fade is gone(sadge my best agent), Kayo is no longer a duelist god, hell even viper had her wall-orb combo nerfed.
If that doesn't tell you "Riot doesn't want copy paste comps across maps for long periods," then I don't think you should keep reading. Riot wants EXCITEMENT and ENTERTAINING gameplay.
"Alright I'm starting to see what this is all about, but whats this whole 'bigger picture' aspect?"
The constant factor that has led to this happening over and over, this time with a much more BORING skye meta that enables very slow structured consistent gameplay across maps, is time spent perfecting gameplay.
As a competitor, unsuccessful so far but for shortcomings I have worked my ass off to fix, I get the pain everyone is going through about how much work is just down the drain. There's nothing that can be said or truth that can be spoken that makes that any less painful or damaging. But I don't think Riot wants teams to succeed because they're better at preparing and practicing, they want teams to win because they adapt better than others.
I, PERSONALLY, have criticized their lack of any real grass roots developmental strategy with how dumb ranked is and what it rewards, but I think I missed this one.
If these decisions, now including this Skye assassination, are all part of a bigger picture, HONSETLY, IM OK WITH IT.
I get that that is a scalding HOT take but I feel like if we zoom out, so far this isn't really that horrific.
The part where it gets sketchy and I understand how this can be disrespectful to just throw out ideas about but it has a logic thread to it; this explains why their recent layoffs are specifically esports division people. They've been getting more and more on our side and taking in the criticism even if it doesn't look like it, bc he-who-shall-not-be-named is just completely out-of-touch and is the only public face of the direction/changes being made. Riot carries a lot of pride in their decision making and as I said in my 2birds1stone post about the whole less matches thing, some of that is earned, but that doesn't make it healthy.
There may not be a hard set meta on every map, or even 2 or 3 comps that you always see. This may be riot firing the starter pistol in the race of "who will reach the promised land of their long term vision of Valorant as an esport." I'm creative, I feel like I see possibilities in comps others don't, I've been lazy with a lot of it cuz I didn't want to fully igl until now, but other comps DO WORK. and NOBODY tries any of it. We've seen token test runs with C9 deadlock on Icebox in this Ludwig tourney, EG last season with yoru jett Pearl (but even then yoru is genuinely nuts on that map to begin with), Gekko here and there, but its on average its a meme.
kid yourself rito doesnt want lil bro on the big screen
Chamber was so incredibly oppressive bc the state of Prime Kayo and PRIME Astra was fucking INSANE and everyone just remembers chamber bc he killed everyone. Skye isn't even oppressive in that traditional sense she just has the capability to deal with anything whereas other comps will have stronger strengths and weaker weaknesses.
gekko supremacy tho
Do you know how many times people miss flashes or have them blocked so they dont get as far as they need to be? Professional skyes hit random hitboxes and the flash just sticks to a wall like semtex in COD. that fucks EVERYONE
Fundamentally skye can not be played in any previously made/meta skye comp. Her entire purpose is changed the OP relating to chamber is 100% on the nose. This is meta assassination. not balance
except thats every initiator. And even at a challenger level skye just isnt oppressive. rito wants people to play "weird" agent comps. the end. there is no balance in this. Her new state is by far the worst initiator that has ever been in the game now.
If anyone can inform me as to whether lower ranked hated skye enough to make this happen thats honestly the only logic I can see outside of:
This wasn't agent balancing this was meta assassination. That in and of itself is not a bad thing, its what the game is at a fundamental level and people have been doing what they can to make it more like Counterstrike-perfectionist esque.
My issue is that skye isn't even op the other initiators just suck at reliability comparatively. Obviously sova/kayo have their maps with things skye could never do which is what is supposed to happen with balancing. I didn't think we were ready for this conversation yet but apparently Riot is ready to go into this territory: Initiators should not have 1 basically constant cooldown timer for their signature abilities.
Breach is a much easier agent to make the point with, Viper counters breach comps bc breach can take a line 3 times a round at best. that number could be increased to at least 4,5(in drawn out rounds with bomb down) before it gets into super broken territory. Especially with how often initiator util is used off cooldown, that should've been the start imo bc the comps that will follow skye meta just aren't as reliable. Theres nothing that will be changed about that before some of the biggest games in our careers for some of us.
I'm vibing im "that weird comp guy" anyway in NA so, ill figure it out. The guaranteed flash popping is terrible and that should be reverted and the person who wants that needs a pay cut. That is just terrible at every level we shouldn't need to make people hate an agent to put them in the ground the rest of it will do enough.
ty sir, it appears they have clapped back by reworking skye, more details soon.
not gonna give any opinions on how good anyone is rn but i would like to point out yay didnt change-chamber did. yay doesnt play chamber like dat anymore for a reason. doesnt matter who it is the meta itself is different. lowkey people forget how much prime time astra and kayo enabled the chamber meta. chamber in that state being released today is alot less powerful than it was then, theres just more in the game now.
it would absolutely be online in order to interact with the challengers teams. and tbh, it doesnt need that much marketing. it sells itself in your words of "watch the bad teams do bad" the purpose is that if the team as a unit isnt worthy of being in franchise the players who would be are competing against them. If the players are worthy of their franchise spot they have more opportunity to practice what they need to and try things they want to. It also means that everyone gets to stay as in form as possible all around for entire regions
edit: also just playing the game is good. thats what the job is. also again, ur saying bad teams but im saying teams that dont qual to the bigger events. thats alot more than jsut the bottom rung teams.
Exactly, the game is going to be in a state of development toward the "final esport product" for a long time, and I don't think we get there easier/safer through making decisions as if we're already there. I think the fan base rn is tied to their favorite player on a team typically.
Like that team who is also an agent type in the game. content 24/7 involving their most "diplomatic" players
I can see where you're going with everything after the more splits part, but for that specifically I don't think theres enough time in the year really. Like yea we have ALOT of downtime rn but that itself would take a huge chunk of that away. I think we would need to do this 1 step at a time and I'd rather start with more events and better planning for the franchise teams that will have downtime while their regions front runners dont.
the breaks part i think the issue is that a lot of the burnout of from how hard teams practice, counterstrike has a forced player break where no teams are allowed to practice i believe. That would have to be more of the aim than any real "match-play" gap
Gonna start this off by saying I have no expectation for this to happen(quickly). When riot starts doing things they already have a plan to follow.
Also I have a lot of region-specific experience/perspective in this, I'd rather people talk about the nuances of other regions than flaming me saying what I'm talking about might not be correct everywhere.
Out the gate, the best(consistently) performing team in the world, 2023 FNATIC, SHOULD FEEL BURNOUT. They are the best team, if they are comfy something is wrong. That does not mean we should dismiss what they feel and what players need to stay both in form and mentally stable. HOWEVER, the real issue lies in the rest of the teams that AREN'T making every event have nothing else to do! There is no extra grind to go work through shortcomings and theory craft creative solutions/comps. Now having even LESS MATCHES on top of that pre-existing issue, they need to enable non-circuit tournaments/matches for the teams that are left behind.
"How would that even work? What if the players need a break? Who would lead the tournaments?"
There are 2 concurrent coversations that have the same solution here from my perspective. Riot doesn't want organizations to feel profitable hovering in tier2. The community doesn't like this but its pretty simple to understand the approach. HOWEVER, the system for the players in t2 still mostly functions as if the opposite were true. Tier2 players losing contracts bc there isn't anything reputable to play after their season ends is just unnecessary. If they suck and deserve to be cut-IT WILL HAPPEN.
"WHAT IS THE SOLUTION ALREADY?!!??!?"
SHOWCASE TOURNAMENTS EITHER BEFORE or AFTER CAPSTONE EVENTS(Masters, champs, LCQs).
Franchise players that deserve to be in the league are capable of figuring out their issues, but most players need matches to really see what people will do to counter them. And need the reps to actually CHANGE their bad habits/plays that lead to those important losses. [Region]scrims.exe
Tier2 Players that deserve to be in franchising deserve an opportunity to prove that. That does not consist of stomping on other tier2 players. I'm sure this point will be more appreciated by analysts/team level players: It is an entirely different game between tier 2 and tier1. Both sides need the experience to improve their game. I understand the embarassment of a franchise team losing to a tier2 team and why riot doesn't want that to happen a lot. HOWEVER, I know for a fact yall hate player recycling. You give players an opening to show they understand the level of tier1 play those teams will notice.
I also believe its good for storylines especially with the state of most casting(sry its not yalls fault but this change would also help yall practice as well); people don't know who any of these "new" players are.
Let's use C9 Oxy as an example. He's been shitting on pros in ranked for ages now. 100% deserves his spot on the team and its clear as day even from the first matches. But it feels weird that the first time we're really seeing a professional-franchise duelist prodigy type play against another franchise duelist in a match setting, is once hes signed. The guy would have been shitting on the same people, back on g2, that he is right now on c9. But thats BRUTALLY obvious. What about all the other roles that being amazing at doesn't necessarily mean you look flashy and exciting and you just nuke everything in the server? They don't get shit, you need impeccable scouting. MCE was great at this, as much as there is to say about the previous iteration of c9 and blah blah; when I saw jakee getting picked up I was like, aight that makes sense he should be fine in t1. But for a lot of people, they just hear a caster say he was collegiate player and THATS IT. Like ???? And even then, jake farmed his games and ranked. There are playstyles that don't necessarily enable yourself to farm kills-but setup all of your teammates for success.
And thats necessary to the game. 5 isolated star players from each role put onto 1 team would very likely not succeed, at least quickly. Players have to make sacrifices all the time in order for the team to win.
I trust Riot to eventually get things right don't get me wrong, as much as they get hate for everything they do, esports is in a fucking horrible spot-lets be honest with ourselves. Rocket League is dying, Counter-strike is scrambling a bit, Apex is that whole thing, Overwatch.exe
Riot carries their pride in with the decisions they make, and a portion of that is deserved. I'm not expecting trolls to stop making shitposts but I think a lot of people with an audience don't comment on things as much bc they don't want to think past "well this is how it feels for me."
They have the motivation to make the game successful bc they make money from it. Its a pretty powerful motivator.
We have the motivation to make the game successful bc WE PLAY IT. Let's try to figure out how to get on the same page here and sync up some goals/expectations.
Riot wants a good form of control over the public image of their game and its very easy to prevent any tarnishing of that by not allowing 3rd party anything. Personally approved tournaments are not counter-evidence to this point. "I want my company's flagship FPS title to look good." is not a crazy concept.
(Final point)
HOWEVER, we need more in the scene. If we aren't going to get demos then we need more matches. I'm personally ok with what I can get from mapstaring vods and replaying rounds till I see everything that happened. Some riot employee is reading this rn saying "but you never answered who would run it!" I am not a billion dollar company. Yall have the resources to figure out how to make this work and honestly it would make more money. People buy skins when they get hyped. We'd have more hype. We'd have comparative gameplay from tier2 to tier1 and be able to truly see HOW MUCH BETTER a team playing in masters or Champs is vs a team playing in challengers. People just see kills and don't really have an opportunity to see more than that.
TL;dr
Riot if you can find a way that everyone plays a more equal amount of matches-while also enabling players in both t1 and t2 to prove that they each, deserve to be where they are at-and deserve to be higher than where they are at. Burnout is important to keep in mind but there won't ever be a good system that the best team in the world gets to sit back and chill for longer than a week or 2 after a masters event.
Ah yes, the classic "this professional player is not who I want therefore they are shit" bit.
Both are good players, both provide their own value. The reason you don't see actual pros constantly have takes like these is because just like you, they'd be talking out of their ass.
Player personalities contribute massively to the environment which has a huge influence in the progression of the team. Some personalities are more beneficial some are more detrimental, some have bits of both. It is up to the team/coaching staff to determine what fits their vision best and therefore-who to keep on the active team.
I don't know anything too specific about it and neither do you, so quit yapping and move along.
i gotchu
Franchising for tier1 isnt necessarily the problem, the pseudo franchise system they ran for t2 this year that LEGITIMATELY doesnt enable ANY of their goals, put your energy into that. If u want t2 to be in a constant state of flux where players go in and out why are we completely isolated from the place we're supposed to be moving up to??? - Make people have to prove they deserve tier1 and let people prove they deserve to make it out of tier2.
We almost ended up with a token Ascension winner bc the Guard didnt make a deal with Riot, the actual invalidity/validity of the reasons for this aren't even relevant. If we're only gonna have 1 or 2 "league seasons" a year your system cant rely on orgs to support players in the downtime-there cant BE extended downtimes. People need to be constantly showcasing themselves.
We've been entitled as fuck and that hasn't helped but can we at least get a logical system?
edit: im tired of everyone just autoblaming riot-every decision they make is gonna have positives and negatives. This company cares more than any other I know. Give them credit and think about what we say to them. If they're just gonna get blasted no matter what they're just gonna put us on the shelf until its NECESSARY for the game to survive. Reward them for addressing things we need.
all due respect, its a very fun region to watch; there's a reason theres imports to your region. You have INSANELY gifted mechanical players but in valorant you can only utilize ur mechanics as much as u can follow what is going on in a round/know where u can actually isolate a kill/opening.
Seeing a player get insane ranked highlights/lower tier match highlights when the competition isn't really indicative of what the international scene needs: its not enough to just bring aim to a team.
Now is your statement true? probably, but Gov is a very marketable player/streamer and he ALSO has the mechanics and he ALSO has the dedication/puts in the time.
So when the question is gamble on a duelist that hasn't seen the same exposure/pressure/style that franchise orgs aspire to compete in, vs import, importing is safest.
that being said I am also a player and my opinions probably have a grain of truth but come up short as far as how things are truly weighted: I have no idea how much it mattered to them that Gov already has a bigger following but IK its the #1 thing thats told to us when we deal with contracts "How do we get our return?"
EITHERWAY GIVE HIM A CHANCE HE DESERVES IT
not by any real metric I've seen, we are building grassroots here vs 20+ years of cs roots. Sure maybe the big dip with the extensive cs2 bugs with movement on release then the explosion of cheaters in premier people stopped for a bit but most probably planned on just waiting till fixes.
We have our own spot and cs has its own, I've experienced both in depth: valorant isnt going anywhere nor is cs and neither has to actually crush the other to grow and prosper.
I aint no king yet but im entering my Duelist IGL arc so maybe soon
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