I mean, Lakia still played really well in Shanghai. But looking at it, all of the players at least peaked when they won the trophy (Boostio, for example, was fragging pretty heavy, he did not look nearly as good after champs.)

I think Lakia was incredibly important for GenG, especially since it seems he played an important role for mental and calling. But he didn't really individually peak during their trophy winning run. He was much better at Madrid, Champs and the regional matches imo.

So in franchising we've had:
Lock in Sao paulo and Tokyo for Fnatic 2023: Boaster, Leo, Chronicle, Derke & Alfajer
Champs 2023 for EG: Boostio, C0m, Ethan, Demon1 & Jawgemo
Masters Madrid for Sen 2024: Zekken, TenZ, Zellsis, JohnQT & Sacy
Masters Shanghai for GenG 2024: Munchkin, Meteor, T3xture, Lakia & Karon
Champs 2024 for EDG: Nobody, S1mon, ZmjjKK, Chichoo & Smoggy
Masters Bangkok for T1 2025: BuZz, Izu, Sylvan, Meteor & Stax (& technically Carpe)
Masters Toronto for PRX 2025: Patmen, F0rsaken, D4v41, Something & Jinggg

I think if you count Carpe, it's him. Not even flaming him as a player, but he played only 1 series, where he didn't play all that good. He's the 2nd lowest rated player for that tournament. Otherwise, I think it'd have to be between Lakia, S1mon and C0m. They all played a super supportive role for their team, and made them not play nearly as good individually. My shout would have to be Lakia, even if he played pretty dang well.

yet they still won a ton with Sylvan, until his confidence broke. His controller util was unmatched

frfr like imagine conquering like half the world for spices and then actually using them.... like who would use them then?

I AM MAN IT SMELLS SO GOOD - U USING GARLIC???

Wait holy shit a vlr user comes with a roster rebuild that actually makes sense????

Daiki

Teams value initiators a ton - you're least likely to see a non initiator comp (other than smokes, but you'll basically never see that). Even if fade haunts don't get much value, they get pretty decent value, and the prowlers are pretty good. Will probably be either skye/fade combined with a vyse. Most likely Raze/Yoru, Omen, Viper, Vyse (or another senti, Chamber/Cypher/Deadlock) and then either Skye or Fade.

You make a good point honestly. It's a little nit-picky from me too, seeing as he's been a very consistently strong player since 2022. I don't think you could argue that Masters Tokyo was a good performance from Aspas, though it wasn't from the entirety of loud tbf. His champs 2022 was also not great, but that's 1 really bad, and 2 somewhat below average tournaments. Still 7 tournaments where he did average to great. Again though - arguing for aspas top 10 oat for sure, probably even top 5 - just not the absolute best.

That makes sense to some degree, but to me it feels like people look back at loud as if he hard-carried them, when that makes no sense to me. He definitely elevates teams, but I don't think he's undisputed top 3 oat.

That could be it? I'm not saying he's terrible or anything, I just feel like everyone acts as if he's god's gift to valorant, when he doesn't feel that much above the other top players. Personally would have him in my top 15 of all time, probably around the #7 spot though, not #1.

Oh, he's for sure a really good player, don't get me wrong on that. But people act as if he's undisputed top 3, and I don't think that's true. Maybe it's nit-picky, but I feel like he gets rated way too strongly, when I think Chronicle, Derke, probably Alfajer now, maybe even Forsaken or D4v41 for example are stronger players overall than him, especially over the years. Everyone acts as if he's the undisputed goat (though Chronicle definitely gets his flowers atp, it was/has been aspas for very long) when I don't think that's realistic.

Genuine question here, what makes people rate aspas so high? Why'd he get the mvp from champs 2022? (at least, he's listed as such on liquipedia)

While I'm definitely not here to debate that aspas is shit or something, I feel like people rate him #1 or the goat of valorant so consistently, while I just can't comprehend that. The trophy he won, champs 2022, he was not worthy of the mvp. I might misremember this, but I felt like Pancada played the best, or you could argue Less or Sacy. I don't even think Aspas is in the discussion for best player of champs 2022. You might argue Aspas for the best player on Loud for Reykjavik, him or sacy at least. For 2023 Lock/in you could argue him or Less, I guess you could argue aspas best player on loud for tokyo, but they did bomb out 0-2 and he didn't perform good... And for champs 2023 he played his best games, when Loud lost - I don't think he's undisputed the best player on his team or in the world for all of 2022-2023. I think he was the best player for Lev at shanghai, but they didn't make it out of swiss... In champs 2024 it's a bit more difficult, I think he was their best player. Him or Kingg.

Not to say he's not top 10 oat, or a bad player or whatever - Like the eye test is easy enough. The dude frags, it's like he's got magnetic bullets sometimes, but not always. And his consistency on other agents has always been a bit rough, not to mention his toronto performance (which I don't think should weigh very heavily). But what makes people rate him so high?

Ahh alright, fair enough. I was honestly just curious to see what made you put who where. Hope I didn't come across as too aggressive hahaha, just wondered what your thought process was :)

Leo was not nearly as flashy, no, but he was so incredible the entire year. Best player of 2023 and I think that's not even super close.

within this list, why is Loud considered a peak? I feel like Loud were good (top-level team even) from 2022-2023 maybe even beginning of 2024.
For consistent Leo & KangKang I'm not entirely sure, since I feel like they both had crazy insane peaks, but weren't super consistently at that super high level?
Also you have Leo twice, in consistent and peak - is that on purpose?

Last is I'm unsure of peak. A few ones make sense (most of the teams make sense honestly - though GenG, Loud? Gen G is up in the air I suppose, if they have a good champs this year I'd argue they'd make consistent. Loud had 2022 where they placed 2nd and won champs, and then in 2023 placed 2nd and 3rd in champs. That has to count for consistent rather than peak, no?) Sayf, Crashies, Pancada and Sacy I think shouldn't be in peak. I don't think Sayf has had a consistent good year (might've been 2023?), but Crashies, Pancada and Sacy have shown that their peaks definitely weren't one-time things. At least Sacy should be out of peak, 2022 with Loud and 2024 with Sen.

Specifically talking about Untraded first kills and untraded first deaths

F0rsaken:
UFK: 7.5%
UFD: 6.5%

Alfa:
UFK: 14.8% (This is insane by the way, Kaajak had 17.4%)
UFD: 8.8%

These stats are so strongly different because of the roles, and how the teams themselves played (Prx strongly favouring team fights, and Fnatic playing a lot slower, with a lot more inserts/lurks). I'm not saying that Alfa didn't get crazy value with it, but F0rsaken played his role nearly perfectly. If F0rsaken didn't play how he played, PRX wouldn't have won. Alfa could've played worse, and they still would've lost. F0rsaken had more impact, even if Alfa played better individually.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did not attend any internationals in 2022 right? 2020-2021 with an insane form I will admit, though he wasn't really known in 2020. Very scary in 2021, for sure, incredible performance. But he was the 3rd best player on Navi in 2023. Shao & Suygetsu were both better than him (though very close, to be fair). By far a top 3 oat operator player, but he has the same accolades as Demon1, 1 really really insanely good year, a champs trophy, and no real impact afterwards. F0rsaken has missed 3 internationals.

F0rsaken might not put up insane stats, but he has incredible impact. He was crucial in winning prx the trophy (you could argue Alfa should've had mvp, but F0rsaken won so many rounds for them - Alfa fragged super hard, but F0rsaken had a crazy clutch rate, amazing amount of assists, and very little untraded first deaths, and a good amount of untraded first kills.)

If anything, he has to be above Cned. Cned had an amazing tournament with the first champs, but he's not played good enough to be considered top 20 oat at all.

Cned, Less, Mako and Tenz all above Forsaken? I feel like Forsaken should be above at least one of them, no? Above Cned for sure?

Uhhh yeah kinda, I just think that Paper Rex lost to themselves in both finals, they weren't nearly playing their best. You could argue the teams were better, but I think the peak was way higher for PRX in both cases.

They choked 2023 champs 100% and I'd argue they choked Copenhagen too. Fpx was patient enough to wait them out.

They have like a 62% winrate since 2024? The only recent loss they had was against G2 in RBHG with Sayonara and Kaajak just recently signed

I think you've got enough examples that f0rsakeN/d4v41 don't really need to be mentioned, as I don't think they're really IGL (Also not sure how much I'd count Munchkin and Stax under fragging igl's like the rest). Then again, you're very much right that being an IGL should not have an impact on your performance like that - especially since Boo had a pretty damn good year in 2024 individually - but maybe he has to reel the other players in more or something? Something definitely not working for TH at least.

Apart from the fact that he doesn't want to play duelist, Woot would be an insane duelist for TH, no? I might be missing something here though, feel stupid lol

As much as I have a soft spot for Stax, it is true. Glad to be of help to translate hahaha

When stax plays at his worst, it's better than when Munchkin plays at his worst. (individually speaking) When Munchkin plays at his best, that's better than when Stax plays at his best.

Stax specifically was the main initiator player for T1, but he played flash initiator whenever possible. I think the fact he played a lot of recon was moreso a product of the comps they played (lots of double duelist, or at least little double ini), and the fact that he strongly prefers the initiator role. Any double initiator comps they ran, he was the flash initiator (breach on fracture or kayo on bind, for example.) and gave up the recon to Izu. Nobody definitely played the recon mostly though, with S1mon being full flash initiator.

If they all happen in a similar way to Bangkok then that would be absolute cinema. Crazy script writing.

Ehh Sen vs the Chinese teams was also pretty close. But in a weird way honestly, the chinese teams kinda lost to themselves. Team Heretics and Mibr didn't really put up a fight, BLG TL was very scrappy. TL PRX has a chance to be close, but I'm hoping PRX just close it out. Will be another enjoyable game, hopefully.

Kamo is really not that good honestly. He seems to kind of only perform on the Jett, and he had some good performances on the Waylay stage 1. Might be nerves, might be something else that I'm missing, but he's not super flexible, and overall is not playing well - at least on the duelist. Keiko outshines him every time they play the double duelist.

they sadly just played better that game. If PRX had gotten a pistol on Ascent, PRX would've won, and GenG had some really really good anti-stratting on Icebox - But holy I think Ascent was the most entertaining map to watch in this tourney until now, wouldn't be surprised if it's still the best when the event is finished. Definitely think a map deep into the playoffs is one of the only ones to top it at least, both of the teams were shooting

I can see why you say that, but I don't think I quite agree yet. Current form they're very very close, and if you value flexibility in any form then Juicy wins, playing quite a few more duelists rn. But I just can't ignore how incredible Jingg's Raze still is - I mean the mid-air dodge from the stun against Woot on pearl is still....

This year they've all been inconsistent. Last year Woot had the highest peak, and Benjy and especially Riens were incredibly consistent.

Fnatic will probably still have a pretty deep run, I mean they have the advantage of not showing any maps

Dude this Jersey is so cool wth how come I never saw it before

and what about Masters Shanghai?

Seems like they rate a bit higher than R2.0? so less harshly below 1.0 rating and more rewarding if you do particularly well. At least, that's what I seem to get from a first glance.

Balla 30 rule, a match is always AT LEAST 30% winnable

At least you admit it's cope hahaha - drawing Fnatic was definitely rough, and they most likely would've made it deeper with a different opponent first round

how's the rating 3.0 work? Anyone know per chance?

that's 2 matches though

I feel like 2023 champs was quite a bit more top-heavy than 2022 champs. With maybe only 2023 group stage having the strongest group by far, with Group D.

Lock//in SEN is not even in a similar position to Lock//in Fnatic, Loud, NaVi, DRX or NRG. Talon and 100 Thieves, maybe even Leviatan were leagues above at that event.

Cryo's good and easily top 5 player in Americas but he does not clear Zekken

Yeah, but they do have 2 trophies and have been very competitive historically (DRX, PRX, GenG). I know it's not quite champs-level but it should have some weight, especially cause I think they have the strongest average right now.

I doubt it'll be just above average. Don't get me wrong, he won't be performing to the same standard he had been, especially not at the start. But there's a really good chance he'll still be a top player, with how he performed before leaving, it's kind of insane. The dude was hands down the best player in any metric you could find, and there's analytics and stuff to back that up.

if we just hope to see G2/TH/PRX in any combination for grands, then we just get a never-ending game. None of them can win a trophy.

I suppose that's fair, I just feel like you're better off with either munchkin or stax and a different player (Izu, Francis or even Zest) To fill out that other initiator role. But I do love Stax, I'd probably be rooting for this team if there was like a world cup in val hahaha

how would the roles work? BuZz duelist, Meteor senti/2nd duelist, Karon smokes I presume, and then Munchkin on Viper/ini and Stax full ini? I feel like you're missing a strong recon initiator here, honestly.