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genuine question please send no hate

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#1
BigJuicyyyy

is there a real, non-sexist reason why the level of gameplay in female pro play (in many games) is on a lower level than the gameplay that male pro play has?

#2
DrudaL
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playerpool
less woman play the game, thats it

#5
Bernazoka
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also men just play ranked more

#19
Duxk
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This isn’t unreasonable?

#20
AlexSMTx
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ik, his comment might sound bad but in my experience he isn't saying anything crazy. The ratio of women to men that take the game as something competitive instead of a side hobby is different, I think. Personally, I rarely see women in ranked while I see a lot in game modes like swift play and spike rush. Either that or women just dont talk at all in my ranked matches but talk a lot during my swift and spike rush games lol. I might be wrong but, in my experience, it's been like that

#3
Tempest24
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idrk
smaller sample size i wanna say
they have slightly less reaction times ig?
also more women only play games for fun and don't want to take that step to competition

#4
sw4gman
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small sample size
macro diff(?)

#6
foythvlr
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games has been recognized as a male thing since its inception -> women were less encouraged to play -> less woman players -> less good woman players
this has been changing but it will still take some time

#7
m0rtem
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I feel like biologically and genetically woman are at a disadvantage for very minutute factors where they can still probably compete with men. its a cultural issue as there is so much toxicity and I dont think many tier 1 players are comfortable having a woman on their team

#22
vctism
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You are right on the cultural stuff but has really nothing to do with genetics or anything like that

#8
cinnastick
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guys who play video games competitively generally are the type of guys to not want to play with any women ever

#9
Pototo
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yep its simple as well...

  1. very few are interested in gaming... and then the amount who are actually good enough to go pro from the already small pool is even smaller

  2. harsh environment for tht little amount of women...they face a lot of toxicity from men/society/esport orgs

#10
Tempest24
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oh yeah didn't meL get rejected from a t1/t2 team bc the players/coaches were uncomfortable around a woman?

#11
Nilonesia
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😭

#12
sw4gman
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this is crazy to me cause it implies male esports players cant handle having a woman as a coworker if they got a real j*b😭😭

#13
Pototo
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i mean all men are definitely not like this but there are some in every field

#25
Two_Percent
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welcome to engineering

#26
Pototo
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lmao

#14
Pototo
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ya its stuff like this.....however i feel itll only improve in the future with more awareness but ya the current scenario is not ideal

#16
0d3gree
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nah plenty of us interested there are just other things we r encouraged to do. people internalize stereotypes and feel this isnt their area. also Valorant is really really really toxic, like CS players are completely insane when they r toxic but i get like 1 toxic cs player in like 20-30 games compared to every other in Valorant

#17
Pototo
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agreed still i was talking about percentages globally.... and as u said women are encouraged to do other things which is one the many reasons why we have a smaller pool of gaming women.

#15
HIMNIJ
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Less people means less overall level means lower level means less competition pushing the level higher means less need for teams and players to fix mistakes,etc,etc,etc

#18
0d3gree
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Ok so huge stat nerd here and huge esports nerd, and major aim nerd.

The flaw with science in general is that you only need to beat 1/20 chance of ur dataset yielding an incorrect result to publish. If you find 20 different ways to sort a bunch of people who's reaction time you tested, if you stop testing when you get the confidence you want (1/20), etc. you can cheese a publication. some people satirically "proved" that humans can see the future under this system.

with that said reaction times are either EXTREMELY (+/- 3ms tops in my experience) close or the same according to gender. Introduce caffiene or something like that it trivializes any effects gender may or may not have. Its not reaction time its institutional sexism (women aren't led to games/discouraged from playing and taking them seriously so less women have reached a point of being good)

#21
ggd12345
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I don't think studies have really shown anything, but this trend exists across most competitions in the world. Here are some of the reasons I use to justify it (note that I haven't fully fact-checked them, but they're the best explanations I've seen).

  • Physical biological difference: Men are stronger genetically. However this probably doesn't explain non-physical contests
  • Larger variance in skill: I've seen somewhere that intelligence is a sex-linked gene. So, for a woman to be really smart, she would need TWO smart X chromosomes, while a man would only need one (very roughly, also again I'm not sure if this is true). This means that, even if men and women are equally as smart on average, the TOP men are smartest than women (and similarly, the dumbest men are dumber than women). I'm not sure if this applies to anything outside intelligence though.
  • Societal pressure: It's usually more "socially acceptable" for men to like gaming; this is also partially true for other fields, like math. Women also feel much more pressure to quit male-dominated fields, ranging from val to chess to math.
  • Competition: Men are biologically more competitive (citation needed; my reasoning is that males usually fight for mates, while females don't). So, they are more likely to grind something and get good at it
#23
vctism
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All these comments about it being a biological thing are wrong, in reality it’s a social thing.

Everyone that has said that it is because of the toxic/misoginistic environment are right but have you ever considered it could be a deeper social issue that spreads across all esports and sports generally? What I’m saying is that if women are less skilled than men in esports because of gender roles? let me explain why with an example.

When a kid is on their younger days and it is basically creating its own identity there are social roles that are pushed into the kids depending on their gender. For example if the kid is born a women it is most likely she will be taught to be delicate, to like dolls, to like fashion, to care for other people, to like cooking, etc. While a kid that is man will be taught to be aggressive, to be strong, to like sports and not be afraid. From these examples you can already see why women aren’t encouraged to even play video games: because video games (specially shooters) do not align with what is considered to be ‘for women’ (specially since a lot of video games are violent or involve using guns, shooting enemies, etc). I am not saying this is the absolute rule for every women in the world, but what I’m trying to say is that this gender roles is what causes the disparity between female players and male players in the first place.

Once this segregation occurs is when the skill level starts to also differentiate between men and women, why? Because men tend to start playing video games at a younger age than women. If we ask a tier 1 male player when did they started playing video games it is very likely they started playing when they were kids, while female players probably started later in life. This years end up being crucial, why? Because no one is born being good at video games, while you could have and innate skill for video games, if you don’t develop it will be good for nothing. Skills like reaction time, game sense, hand eye coordination, are better developed in the younger years of childhood. So if we add 1+1 we are going to find out why it is most likely for men to become better at video games: basically because of earlier access to video games + social encouragement to play them.

AGAIN, this is not the general rule and you can reply this with examples of x and y players that to not fit the general standard I just mentioned but I just wanted to point this out because this not only happens in valorant, it happens in all of esports and even normal sports. I’m just trying to make you see the bigger picture in here.

#24
Two_Percent
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they would be too distracted by 1leafs beautiful hair and smile and face

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